Old Believers and Old Calendarists

[NotChrysostomYet]

Actually the number of Old Calendarists is way more than 500,000 there are suspected to be at least 1 million in Russia alone.

Frankly that would surprise me very much, partly because the Russian Orthodox Church is still on the Old Calendar (therefore diminishing the appeal of an Old Calendarist jurisdiction for people in Russia - Old Calendarism is primarily a phenomenon in Greece). But perhaps you're right. Do you know of any synods that claim at least a decent fraction of that number in Russia?

Still, the point remains: playing the numbers game as an Old Calendarist is not to your advantage, especially when I'm not even trying to say that the Old Believers as they are today are the "true" Orthodox.

I know, of course numbers don't determine the true church (that would be silly ) and actually I and the Traditional church would argue that even though Russia is still on the old calendar, it doesn't diminish the appeal of the Traditional Orthodox. The Russian Orthodox Church is involved in ecumenical dialogue with the Roman Catholics, Monophysites, Nestorians etc. This has caused many people in the Russian church to seek elsewhere and to stop commemorating the MP. As for the Majority of Traditional Orthodox synods in Russia, I believe it would be either the ROAC or the RTOC but I could be wrong since the synod under Metropolitan Rafail has quite the following in Russia and there are many Greek True Orthodox synods there as well.

Okay, fair enough. I'm still highly suspicious of those numbers, but oh well.

Moving on: anything specific about the Old Believers you'd be interested in/have a question about? Edit: Or I can bring up something about them, and we can continue the discussion on that. (Or not at all, lol.)

[Justice]

Frankly that would surprise me very much, partly because the Russian Orthodox Church is still on the Old Calendar (therefore diminishing the appeal of an Old Calendarist jurisdiction for people in Russia - Old Calendarism is primarily a phenomenon in Greece). But perhaps you're right. Do you know of any synods that claim at least a decent fraction of that number in Russia?

Still, the point remains: playing the numbers game as an Old Calendarist is not to your advantage, especially when I'm not even trying to say that the Old Believers as they are today are the "true" Orthodox.

I know, of course numbers don't determine the true church (that would be silly ) and actually I and the Traditional church would argue that even though Russia is still on the old calendar, it doesn't diminish the appeal of the Traditional Orthodox. The Russian Orthodox Church is involved in ecumenical dialogue with the Roman Catholics, Monophysites, Nestorians etc. This has caused many people in the Russian church to seek elsewhere and to stop commemorating the MP. As for the Majority of Traditional Orthodox synods in Russia, I believe it would be either the ROAC or the RTOC but I could be wrong since the synod under Metropolitan Rafail has quite the following in Russia and there are many Greek True Orthodox synods there as well.

Okay, fair enough. I'm still highly suspicious of those numbers, but oh well.

Moving on: anything specific about the Old Believers you'd be interested in/have a question about?

My first question is for you: Even though you said your weary of the True Orthodox, would you still be interested in learning and if your convinced convert to the faith? my second question is this, what do you think about the spelling corrections that the Old Believers simply couldn't tolerate?

[NotChrysostomYet]

I know, of course numbers don't determine the true church (that would be silly ) and actually I and the Traditional church would argue that even though Russia is still on the old calendar, it doesn't diminish the appeal of the Traditional Orthodox. The Russian Orthodox Church is involved in ecumenical dialogue with the Roman Catholics, Monophysites, Nestorians etc. This has caused many people in the Russian church to seek elsewhere and to stop commemorating the MP. As for the Majority of Traditional Orthodox synods in Russia, I believe it would be either the ROAC or the RTOC but I could be wrong since the synod under Metropolitan Rafail has quite the following in Russia and there are many Greek True Orthodox synods there as well.

Okay, fair enough. I'm still highly suspicious of those numbers, but oh well.

Moving on: anything specific about the Old Believers you'd be interested in/have a question about?

My first question is for you: Even though you said your weary of the True Orthodox, would you still be interested in learning and if your convinced convert to the faith? my second question is this, what do you think about the spelling corrections that the Old Believers simply couldn't tolerate?

Yes, I would be interested in learning more about the True Orthodox. (That's partly why I am here, after all). Yes, if I was convinced, I would convert - with a caveat: where I currently live Old Calendarists simply do not even exist, and it would take about a day's worth of driving to get to a parish. So I would not convert until I moved (which, as someone who is single, would be easy for me to do).

As for the spelling change of Jesus, I think that is one of the few issues which ultimately didn't/doesn't matter. Mostly it was just a pointless change on the part of Patriarch Nikon & co. that no doubt made people uncomfortable, so the leaders of the Old Believers seized upon to drum up support for their cause. (Not unlike some of the nit-picky criticisms that St. Mark of Ephesus made of Rome's externals when speaking to the lower classes to drum up support for rejecting Florence.) I think that one of the proofs of this is that if you were to translate either spelling into Greek or English it would come out as the same word.

Regarding the rest of the spelling changes, those were regrettable, though again not major issues. The hilarious part is that they were meant to bring the Russian Church closer to the practice of the Greek Church, but since that time the Greek Church has self-corrected itself on these other spelling so that most of the Old Rite spellings would be more accurate today.

[Justice]

Okay, fair enough. I'm still highly suspicious of those numbers, but oh well.

Moving on: anything specific about the Old Believers you'd be interested in/have a question about?

My first question is for you: Even though you said your weary of the True Orthodox, would you still be interested in learning and if your convinced convert to the faith? my second question is this, what do you think about the spelling corrections that the Old Believers simply couldn't tolerate?

Yes, I would be interested in learning more about the True Orthodox. (That's partly why I am here, after all). Yes, if I was convinced, I would convert - with a caveat: where I currently live Old Calendarists simply do not even exist, and it would take about a day's worth of driving to get to a parish. So I would not convert until I moved (which, as someone who is single, would be easy for me to do).

As for the spelling change of Jesus, I think that is one of the few issues I think ultimately didn't/doesn't matter. Mostly it was just a pointless change on the part of Patriarch Nikon & co. that no doubt made people uncomfortable, that the leaders on the leaders of the Old Believers sized upon to drum up support for their cause. (Not unlike some of the nit-picky criticisms that St. Mark of Ephesus made of Rome's externals when speaking to the lower classes to drum up support for rejecting Florence.) I think that one of the proofs of this is that if you were to translate either of those words into Greek or English would come out the same.

Regarding the rest of the spelling changes, those were regrettable, though again not major issues. The hilarious part is that they were meant to bring the Russian Church closer to the practice of the Greek Church, but since that time the Greek Church has self-corrected itself on these other spelling so that most of the Old Rite spellings would be more accurate today.

I agree, some of the things they argue for were quite laughable and others were more justified. I've never thought about how the spelling changes would be better in the Old Rite today, that's just another reason why this schism shouldn't have happened.

[Maria]

Actually the number of Old Calendarists is way more than 500,000 there are suspected to be at least 1 million in Russia alone.

Frankly that would surprise me very much, partly because the Russian Orthodox Church is still on the Old Calendar (therefore diminishing the appeal of an Old Calendarist jurisdiction for people in Russia - Old Calendarism is primarily a phenomenon in Greece). But perhaps you're right. Do you know of any synods that claim at least a decent fraction of that number in Russia?

Still, the point remains: playing the numbers game as an Old Calendarist is not to your advantage, especially when I'm not even trying to say that the Old Believers as they are today are the "true" Orthodox.

True Orthodox do not worship with the Traditional Old-Calendar Sergianist MP.

There are many Traditional True Orthodox in Russia who worship at home with no church to attend. Many of the True Orthodox in Russia who started worshiping in real churches after 1990 have been openly persecuted by Russian Police sympathetic to the MP. These persecutions include the destruction of their churches or the legal loss of their church, which they had built with their own funds and labor, the theft of their chalices, icons, service books, vestments, candles, relics, caskets containing the body of holy saints, and/or the imprisonment or detention of their priests and parishioners. These Traditional Orthodox are now forced to worship in private.

In Russia, there are thousands or close to a million or more of Traditional True Orthodox (aka Catacomb Orthodox Christians) who continue to worship privately with a few trusted friends and priests in homes, in forests, in caves, in old mines, etc. as they did during the Soviet era. These Russians belong to the Greek Matthewites under Kyrikos or Archbishop Stephanos, to the RTOC, to the ROAC, to the GOC-K, or to other Traditionalist Orthodox.

Here in the USA, many Old-Calendarists True Orthodox are not within traveling distance by car, so they pray at home, call their priests for Holy Confession, and generally visit their churches once every one to five years if possible. My husband and I find ourselves in this situation. Our home has become a Domestic Church.

[NotChrysostomYet]

Here in the USA, many Old-Calendarists are not within traveling distance by car, so they pray at home, call their priests for Holy Confession, and generally visit their churches one every three to five years if possible. My husband and I find ourselves in this situation. Our home has become a Domestic Church.

Once every three to five years!? :shock:

[Maria]

Here in the USA, many Old-Calendarists are not within traveling distance by car, so they pray at home, call their priests for Holy Confession, and generally visit their churches once every one to five years if possible. My husband and I find ourselves in this situation. Our home has become a Domestic Church.

Once every three to five years!? :shock:

Oh, we want to move to be close to a church. We have searched for properties.
Nothing within our range so far that is suitable.

Lord have mercy.