ROCOR-L UNANIMOUSLY VOTES TO UNITE WITH MP!

DIscussion and News concerning Orthodox Churches in communion with those who have fallen into the heresies of Ecumenism, Renovationism, Sergianism, and Modernism, or those Traditional Orthodox Churches who are now involved with Name-Worshiping, or vagante jurisdictions. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


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ROCOR-L UNANIMOUSLY VOTES TO UNITE WITH MP!

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

SAN FRANCISCO: May 11, 2006

Resolution of the IV All-Diaspora Council of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia

We, the participants of the IV All-Diaspora Council, having gathered in the God-preserved city of San Francisco, in the blessed presence of the Protectress of the Russian Diaspora, the Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God, and the holy relics of Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco, in trembling recognition of the duty laid upon us, in obedience to our Archpastor, Christ, with complete trust and love of the pastors and laity to our First Hierarch, His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus, and the Council of Bishops, attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we shall submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming Council of Bishops.

We archpastors, pastors and laymen, members of the IV All-Diaspora Council, unanimously express our resoluteness to heal the wounds of division within the Russian Church—between her parts in the Fatherland and abroad. Our Paschal joy is joined by the great hope that in the appropriate time, the unity of the Russian Church will be restored upon the foundation of the Truth of Christ, opening for us the possibility to serve together and to commune from one Chalice.

Hearing the lectures read at the Council, the reports made by the Commission on negotiations with the corresponding Commission of the Moscow Patriarchate, and the various points of view expressed during the discussions, we express our conciliar consent that it is necessary to confirm the canonical status of the Russian Church Abroad for the future as a self-governing part of the Local Russian Church, in accordance with the Regulations of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia currently in force.

From discussions at the Council it is apparent that the participation of the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate in the World Council of Churches evokes confusion among our clergy and flock. With heartfelt pain we ask the hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate to heed the plea of our flock to expediently remove this temptation.

We hope that the forthcoming Local Council of One Russian Church will settle remaining unresolved church problems.

Bowing down before the podvig [spiritual feats] of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, glorified both by the Russian Church Abroad and by the Russian Church in the Fatherland, we see within them the spiritual bridge which rises above the abyss of the lethal division in the Russian Church and makes possible the restoration of that unity which is desired by all.

And we, the members of the IV All-Diaspora Council, address our brothers and sisters in the faith in our renascent Homeland with the Paschal hymns: "Pascha! Let us embrace each other joyously!"

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Orthodox church to vote on ties with Moscow parent

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Russian Orthodox church to vote on ties with Moscow parent
LOUISE CHU
Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO - Delegates from the exiled Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia decided Thursday to embrace the Moscow-based church it broke away from after the Bolshevik revolution.

The New York-based church convened the special 134-member All-Diaspora Council, which includes both clergy and lay people, to issue an opinion to bishops. Those 11 bishops will make a final decision next week.

The council, which met at San Francisco's Holy Virgin Cathedral, was only the fourth convened since 1920 when the church split from the Russian Orthodox Church.

The emigre church severed all contact with its parent in 1927, after Patriarch Sergiy issued a declaration of loyalty to the atheistic Communist government.

The Moscow Patriarchate has said Sergiy did so to save the church from ruin, but it recently disavowed the declaration, along with other church documents that "do not express the true voice of the Church of Christ (and) are deemed no longer valid."

Talk of re-establishing ties began after the Soviet collapse in 1991. The two churches set up working groups after a 2003 visit to Russia by three archbishops of the emigre church and a 2004 visit by its head, Metropolitan Laurus.

In his opening address to the council Sunday, Laurus emphasized the issue at hand was not "unification" or "merger" of the two churches. Regardless of the bishops' vote, the Church Outside Russia would maintain administrative control over its roughly 350 communities in Europe, Australia and North America "for we understand the needs of our clergymen and flock better than they are understood in Moscow," Laurus said.

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Re: ROCOR-L UNANIMOUSLY VOTES TO UNITE WITH MP!

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

We archpastors, pastors and laymen, members of the IV All-Diaspora Council, unanimously express our resoluteness to heal the wounds of division within the Russian Church—between her parts in the Fatherland and abroad.

Honestly, this is the only shocking part of that statement for me. Unanimously?!?!

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Post by Myrrh »

NIPHON wrote:

And today i walk away from not only the Russian Orthodox church ,but from Christianity completely, I may burn in Hell, but God knows I tried and begged to be Baptised for 3 years, I needed to receive Holy Communion, for i dealt with the left hand path...

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                                  farewell

                                                  gilbert gamboa[/quote]

Niphon, Christ knows your heart, maybe what's happened here is protection for you - I've wondered why anyone would want to come into communion with any of the churches as the only thing they appear to have in common is each claiming its own legitimacy..,

John 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Take your time - you're baptised already and God the Holy Spirit isn't a prisoner of the Orthodox.. make yourself a sandwich, have a glass of wine, ask Christ to guide you in your life.

Father in Christ's Name keep you, Holy Mother of God cover you with her veil.

Myrrh

Myrrh

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THE SOBOR RESOLUTION: A MASTERPIECE OF AMBIGUITY

Post by Priest Siluan »

From Paradosis:

THE SOBOR RESOLUTION: A MASTERPIECE OF AMBIGUITY

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  The resolution of the ROCOC  Sobor published in San Francisco on May 11,

2006
(http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2 ... ution.html)
(http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/syn ... ution.html))
is a masterpiece of ambiguity, and a tissue of deception and lies.

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  It begins: "We, the participants of the  IV All-Diaspora Council, having

gathered in the God-preserved city of San Francisco, in the blessed presence
of the Protectress of the Russian Diaspora, the Kursk-Root Icon of the
Mother of God, and the holy relics of Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco,
in
trembling recognition of the duty laid upon us, in
obedience to our Archpastor, Christ, with complete trust and love of the
pastors and laity to our First Hierarch, His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus, and
the Council of Bishops, attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we
shall submit to Divine will and obey the decisions
of the forthcoming Council of Bishops."

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  But how can one say in advance that the  forthcoming Council of Bishops

will express the Divine will? One cannot. Therefore this sentiment is both
rash and impious. Moreover, it is a lie: because we already know that several
participants in the Sobor have already declared unequivocally that they will
not obey the decisions of the forthcoming Council of Bishops if it declares in
favour of union with Moscow.

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  The resolution continues: "We  archpastors, pastors and laymen, members

of the IV All-Diaspora Council, unanimously express our resoluteness to heal
the wounds of division within the Russian Church—between her parts in the
Fatherland and abroad. Our Paschal joy is joined by the great hope that in the
appropriate time, the unity of the Russian Church will be restored upon the
foundation of the Truth of Christ, opening for us the possibility to serve
together and to commune from one Chalice."

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  This is another lie, because many  participants in the Council,

including the majority of the bishops, have already shown themselves not in the
slightest degree interested in healing the wounds of division with, for
example,
ROCiE under Metropolitan Vitaly, ROAC under Metropolitan Valentine, RTOC under
Metropolitan Tikhon, not to speak of Catacomb Synods such as that of the
Seraphimo-Gennadiites. As far as I know, not a word about union with any of
these Synods has been uttered officially at the Council.

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  "Hearing the lectures read at the  Council, the reports made by the

Commission on negotiations with the corresponding Commission of the Moscow
Patriarchate, and the various points of view expressed during the
discussions,..."

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  Has the point of view disagreeing with  union with the MP been allowed

expression at the Council? No, it has not. Rather, not only has the agenda and
preparation for the Council been carefully rigged: the expression of
dissenting opinions has been ruthlessly suppressed. So: another lie.

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  "we express our conciliar consent that  it is necessary to confirm the

canonical status of the Russian Church Abroad for the future as a
self-governing part of the Local Russian Church, in accordance with the
Regulations of
the Russian Orthodox Church Outside
of Russia currently in force."

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  The Russian Church Abroad has always  been part of the Local Russian

Church, in accordance with its own Statute and Patriarch Tikhon's Ukaz no. 362.
So what new is being said here? Only that "the Local Russian Church" is to be
identified with the Moscow Patriarchate. But the resolution cannot say that
aloud because the Regulations of ROCOR do not say that it is part of the MP.
So again: ambiguity and deceit.

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  "From discussions at the Council it is  apparent that the participation

of the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate in the World
Council of Churches evokes confusion among our clergy and flock..."

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  The first unambiguously true words so  far uttered by the resolution...

  "With heartfelt pain we ask the  hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox

Church of
the Moscow Patriarchate to heed the plea of our flock to expediently remove
this temptation."

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  What does "expediently" mean? Before or  after union with the MP? That

is the question. Is the resolution saying that it will not enter into union
with the MP until the MP leaves the WCC? No - at this late stage in the union
process the bishops would not be so bold as to lay down conditions to "his
All-Holiness". So what does this "heartfelt" plea amount to? Nothing more than
a
plea. Which the MP is at complete liberty to ignore completely.

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  "We hope that the forthcoming Local  Council of One Russian Church will

settle remaining unresolved church problems."

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  What? So the problems have not been  sorted out yet?! And they cannot be

sorted out before "the forthcoming Local Council of One Russian Church" -
that is, when ROCOR is already part of the MP?!

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  This is an alarming confession of  failure. All these commissions, and

years of talks, still leave major problems unresolved.

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  The honourable course, therefore, is to  stop the process of union until

the problems are resolved. But no: the resolution wants to join the MP
first, then sort out the problems - when, of course, they will already be
insoluble.

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  "Bowing down before the podvig  [spiritual feats] of the Holy New

Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, glorified both by the Russian Church Abroad
and
by the Russian Church in the Fatherland, we see within them the spiritual
bridge which rises above the abyss of the lethal
division in the Russian Church and makes possible the restoration of that
unity which is desired by all."

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  So the resolution wants to bow down  before the podvig, not only of the

true martyrs glorified by ROCOR, but also of the false "martyrs" glorified by
the MP?! Not only St. Joseph of Petrograd, whom the MP refuses to glorify,
but also of the man who seized his see unlawfully, whom the MP has glorified!
Shame!

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  "And we, the members of the IV  All-Diaspora Council, address our

brothers and sisters in the faith in our renascent Homeland with the Paschal
hymns:
"Pascha! Let us embrace each other joyously!"

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  O shame! So you will embrace Putin,  your brother, the KGB agent and

Freemason, and his All-Holiness KGB Agent Drozdov, while refusing to embrace
your former brothers and sisters in the catacombs who refuse to follow your
lying path!

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  So is there no encouragement to be  drawn from this resolution? No. The

resolution is weak and ambiguous, but its very weakness and ambiguity show
that those who wrote it are looking fearfully over their shoulders at their
opponents, whose number is clearly increasing. The proof of that is the phrase:
"it is necessary to confirm the canonical status of the Russian Church Abroad
for the future as a self-governing part of the Local Russian Church". What
they mean is: "we want ROCOR to join the MP". So why do they not say that
unambiguously? Because they are afraid. Even now they cannot say openly what
they
want to do. And then comes the desperate plea about the WCC, and the
admission that serious problems remain which can be resolved only when the
union
process is already completed. These are the words of desperate men...

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  If the union of most of the ROCOR  bishops with the MP cannot now be

averted, there is still good hope that a large part of the flock of ROCOR can
be
rescued from the maw of the heretical false-church.

Vladimir Moss

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Post by Ekaterina »

From the Paradosis list: A rebuttal (in blue)to Mr Moss (in red)........

--- In orthodox-tradition@yahoogroups.com, VladMoss@... wrote:
THE SOBOR RESOLUTION: A MASTERPIECE OF AMBIGUITY
The resolution of the ROCOC Sobor is a masterpiece of ambiguity, and a tissue of deception and lies.

As was to be expected, Mr. Moss has immediately written his typical vitriol concerning the Orthodox Church from which he has long since departed. Everybody who reads these unfortunate lists knows his opinions concerning the Patriarchal Church of Russia, as well as his opinions about the God pleasing reconciliation of the Russian Church after the fall of communism which is occurring right now. He has spoken out again and again concerning the perceived "sins of others", it goes on and on and on. In order to answer his, and all the other malefactors (V.Kozyreff, "Peter" Andreev, "Nikofor", "Ierei" Kirill Bart etc.) one must assume an ecclesiology which any pious, sober or conscientious Orthodox Christian, or thinking human being for that matter, would find utterly repugnant.

One would have to subscribe to their twisted belief systems that can be basically summed up as this lie: "all the local churches of Orthodoxy are satanic, period."

All their words and thoughts and attitudes and actions reflect this.What more can they say, or what more can they offer as the fruits of their spiritual labors? A foolproof recipe for prelest! Read their writings and responses to priests and laity who question their assumptions in any way. Note the language used and illogic they use when responding to "threats" to their subjective understandings. History – it gets twisted to suit their needs. Theology – let's make that up as we go along. Repentance – that's for the other guy and we don't accept the repentance of others anyway. Schism and heresy – let's not count numbers, we are the true church and all the others have fallen into the abyss. All ranting and raving and very little rational intercourse with others. All emotionally and psychologically based in the wants of themselves at the expense of the needs of others. Hardly Christian by ANY standards, let alone Orthodox.

If fellow readers, you do not subscribe to this fantasy and demonic interpretation of reality, then their rants and passionate diatribes will be meaningless.

Woe to any who believe that the Church of Christ as found in the communion of local Orthodox churches are anything less than that – the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

Living your lives as "traditionalists" outside of that communion can quickly bring the passions of judgment, slander, and even the betrayal of the Christ and his Church itself. See with what wrath those who vent against the church speak and froth. Let me attempt to respond calmly to the latest diatribe:

But how can one say in advance that the forthcoming Council of Bishops will express the Divine will? One cannot.

Well if the ROCOR bishops are Orthodox, and are not changing anything concerning the faith, but are going into communion with their Orthodox brothers – then that is reflective of divine will. Read the Gospel of St. John and see what the Lord has to say about brotherly love and unity. The bishops express the divine will of the Lord in guiding and leading the Church, this is basic.

Therefore this sentiment is both

rash and impious. Moreover, it is a lie: because we already know that several participants in the Sobor have already declared unequivocally that they will not obey the decisions of the forthcoming Council of Bishops if it declares in favor of union with Moscow.

According to your logic – they are either liars, or they will be schismatic from ROCOR. Might I suggest that perhaps they will confess their intemperate words before the Sobor and realize that they should not accept your false dilemma and temptation to leave the Church.

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  [color=red]This is another lie, because many  participants in the Council, including the majority of the bishops, have already  shown themselves not in the Slightest degree interested in healing the wounds of  division with, for example, ROCiE under Metropolitan Vitaly, ROAC under  Metropolitan Valentine, RTOC under Metropolitan Tikhon, not to speak of Catacomb  Synods such as that of the eraphimo-Gennadiites. As far as I know, not a word  about union with any of hese Synods have been uttered officially at the  Council.[/color]

All these groups left the ROCOR in schism and have continually denounced the ROCOR and MP following the twisted belief system noted above: "all the local churches of Orthodoxy are satanic, period." Whatever would the Orthodox be able to say to these people that has not already been said?

The real question is: Why can't these groups get together and unite into one voice if they are so correct? The answer is self-evident: Because schism breeds schism and they can only blame others and not themselves for their own sins and passions.

Has the point of view disagreeing with union with the MP been allowed expression at the Council? No, it has not. Rather, not only has the agenda and preparation for the Council been carefully rigged: the expression of dissenting opinions has been ruthlessly suppressed. So: another lie.

Council delegates freely expressed their opinions, asked questions and heard answers to their "dissents". You claim above that "some participants in the Sobor have already declared unequivocally that they will not obey the decisions of the forthcoming Council of Bishops". You cannot have it both ways. Furthermore – the so called "dissenting opinions" have been all over the internet and are well known to all by now. There has been YEARS of discussions. Those who couldn't even calmly handle that ran off to ROCIE long ago.

So what new is being said here? Only that "the Local Russian Church" is to be identified with the Moscow Patriarchate. But the resolution cannot say that aloud because the Regulations of ROCOR do not say that it is part of the MP. So again: ambiguity and deceit.

Again, one needs to subscribe hook, line and sinker to your non-reality in order to take this seriously. True reality would say that the local Russian Church is recognized by all the other local Orthodox churches and is in communion with all those churches. Like it or not, Patriarch Alexei is first hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church. There can only be one Orthodox Church of Russia, and it's not any of the self-loathing groups with which you somehow identify a schizophrenic Russian Church.

What does "expediently" mean? Before or after union with the MP? That is the question. Is the resolution saying that it will not enter into union with the MP until the MP leaves the WCC? No - at this late stagein the union process the bishops would not be so bold as to lay down conditions to "his All-Holiness". So what does this "heartfelt" plea amount to? Nothing more than a plea. Which the MP is at complete liberty to ignore completely.

I understand it to mean that as long as ROCOR remains outside of communion with the Church in Russia, that its influence is one thing, and that after communion is established, its influence will be another. One has hope in the future that the healing will continue, that the relationship between the Church Abroad and the Patriarchate will grow and enable continual assessment and full withdrawal from the WCC over time.

What? So the problems have not been sorted out yet?! And they cannot be sorted out before "the forthcoming Local Council of One Russian Church" - that is, when ROCOR is already part of the MP?! This is an alarming confession of failure. All these commissions, and years of talks, still leave major problems unresolved.

What failure? What major problems still unresolved? The major issues have been addressed and resolved. Read the ROCOR website again. There are other problems that remain un-resolved of course. Jurisdictional questions and others. The question of the WCC was left as the sole major question and will be resolved in time.

The honourable course, therefore, is to stop the process of union until the problems are resolved. But no: the resolution wants to join the MP first, then sort out the problems - when, of course, they will already be insoluble.

Why should reconciliation be stopped? Again given your base assumptions, NOTHING the ROCOR or the MP ever does would ever satisfy your requirements. Would that life revolved so conveniently around us and our wants! But you are not a bishop, a priest, nor even a layperson of the Church in question and your wants are not relevant, nor could they be.The real changes that need to be made in all of this, need to be made by YOU. That is what all real Orthodox should be doing – changing themselves through repentance.

So the resolution wants to bow down before the podvig, not only of the true martyrs glorified by ROCOR, but also of the alse "martyrs" glorified by the MP?! Not only St. Joseph of Petrograd, whom the MP refuses to glorify, but also of the man who seized his see unlawfully, whom the MP has glorified! Shame!

No, shame on you for slandering the new-martyrs of Russia who do not pass your litmus test for political purity! Shame on you for continuing to embitter the process by which mutual forgiveness can be met and the local Russian Church made whole. Shame on you for a worldview and ecclesiology that is so dysfunctional that it cannot believe in the power and all forgiving love of the resurrection of Christ which forgives all.

O shame! So you will embrace Putin, your brother, the KGB agent and Freemason, and his All-Holiness KGB Agent Drozdov, while refusing to embrace your former brothers and sisters in the catacombs who refuse to follow your lying path!

Are you singing the Paschal canon these days? We forgive and embrace all by the resurrection. If others would refuse to forgive, to be forgiven and to be embraced, how can they be embraced? May God forgive!

So is there no encouragement to be drawn from this resolution? No. The resolution is weak and ambiguous, but its very weakness and ambiguity show that those who wrote it are looking fearfully over their shoulders at their opponents, whose number is clearly increasing. The proof of that is the phrase: "it is necessary to confirm the canonical status of the Russian Church Abroad for the future as a self-governing part of the Local Russian Church". What they mean is: "we want ROCOR to join the MP". So why do they not say that unambiguously? Because they are afraid. Even now they cannot say openly what they want to do. And then comes the desperate plea about the WCC, and the admission that serious problems remain which can be resolved only when the union process is already completed. These are the words of desperate men...

The basic premise has been all along that the ROCOR maintain administrative and legal autonomy under the historical circumstances and based on the needs of the Church as it functions. This was voiced years ago, why would it now be considered to be a desperate plea?

If the union of most of the ROCOR bishops with the MP cannot now be averted, there is still good hope that a large part of the flock of ROCOR can be rescued from the maw of the heretical false-church.

As always, the ultimate goal of these diatribes is to snatch more souls into the clutches of the schismatic "groupings" Mr. Moss illuminates above. Disunited, small, bitter and questionable and confessing their ignorance and judgment upon any and all who do not belong to them, they would be somehow recognized as the real Russian Orthodox Church!

It is truly pathetic that Mr. Moss does not stop his campaign against the Church of Christ, does not stop slandering the bishops, clergy and laypeople of the Church of Russia. It is continually sad that a man who ostensibly and publicly dedicates himself to Orthodoxy and Orthodox truth, who has been blessed to write eloquently about the saints, should by turns politicize, demonize and foment and support schism, jumping from one non-canonical jurisdiction to another, with increasing ferocity towards those he has left behind.

But it is immoral beyond question for him and others to continue their vindictive and remorseless campaign as others find their way to repentance and forgiveness. One should ask where all this anger and bitterness come from? Is this following the Lord or following another?

As the ROCOR Sobor resolution so wonderfully ends, and which Mr. Moss leaves out: "Pascha! Let us embrace each other joyously!". That is the Orthodox faith and fact that Mr. Moss wants everybody to ignore. May God help and forgive us all.

XB!
Dcn. John

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Post by Priest Siluan »

Katya:


XB!

Do you also think as this Deacono John think about us?

Once you told me that it was in against the union with the MP but your facts never demonstrated this way.

In Christ

Priest Siluan

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