Orthodox Veneration of the Theotokos

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Mary Kissel
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Post by Mary Kissel »

Father bless!

s prazdnikom to you as well Fr Serafim :) (that would be the reply to that, right?)

In Christ,
MaryCecilia

Phred
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Veneration of Mary

Post by Phred »

How does the veneration of Mary in Orthodoxy differ from the Marian devotion practiced in the Roman church?

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尼古拉前执事
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The Orthodox Veneration of the Theotokos

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Dear Phred, that answer is very long. May I suggest a very inexpensive book? It is called The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God by Saint John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco. It is only $7.00 and will explain this to you perfectly I think.

Excerpted from The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God by St. John Maximovitch, Seraphim Rose, John Maximovitch, Abbot Herman. Copyright © 1997. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved

Having experienced all the difficulties of earthly life, the Intercessor of the Christian race sees every tear, hears every groan and entreaty directed to Her. Especially near to Her are those who labor in the battle with the passions and are zealous for a God-pleasing life. But even in worldly cares She is an irreplaceable helper.

Book Description
This concise work is a classic exposition of how the Christian Church has venerated the Mother of God throughout the ages, and the chief errors which have attacked this veneration. It clearly tells why the Virgin Mary should be honored by all generations, but not considered a co-redemptress along with Jesus Christ, the only Savior of the world.

"For He hath looked upon the lowliness of His handmaiden; for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." (Luke 1:48)

A right understanding of Jesus Christ, the Son of God is not possible without a right understanding of Mary, the Birthgiver of God. When her image is distorted, the image of her Son also becomes distorted.

The sources of Archbishop John's theology are, quite simply, Holy Scripture, the Holy Fathers (especially the great Fathers of the 4th and 5th centuries), and--most distinctively--the Divine services of the Orthodox Church. The latter source offers a clue to the practical approach of St. John to theology.

From Apostolic times, all who truly love Christ give veneration to her who gave birth to Him, raised Him and protected Him in the days of His youth. In THE ORTHODOX VENERATION OF MARY THE BIRTHGIVER OF GOD, St. John traces her veneration from the time of the Apostles to the present.

Last edited by 尼古拉前执事 on Thu 26 February 2004 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

I would be remiss not to mention a more intensive, excellent book to read after reading the above. The following book is one that I have never heard an unkind word about, as it is so thorough and prolific:

The Life of the Virgin Mary, The Theotokos by Holy Apostles Convent

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Post by Joseph D »

Another great title is "Mary, Untrodden Portal of God" Published by Zepher press. I cannnot remember the author's name offhand (it's a Greek PhD., I think), but he describes the fundamental problems of Imaculate Conception doctrine, a Mariology which actually tends to diminish the dogmatic importance and salvific gravity of Christ's humanity. According to the work, even our more refined spiritual posturing toward the Holy Trinity may prove to be predicable of a properly Orthodox veneration of the Theotokos, who is in this sense the Christian's own portal to heaven.

As an academic work, it strikes one as more of a critical summary of mystical teaching. While reading it, I would often forget where I was.

-Joseph

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Phred,

The Catholics hold a number of beliefs about Mary that the Orthodox do not. The two most striking and important ones are the immaculate conception and the assumption. According to Orthodox anthropology, someone who is fully human (and not also fully God) may be born into a sinful world with both "coats of skin" and yet never personally sin, though of course there is the temptation for sin. Orthodoxy believes the Theotokos to be the only person who has (and ever will) live who completely achieved this potential (though it was only by God's uncreated grace, and not of course by her own works in themselves).

Many times the Bible speaks of being perfect, but in Orthodox belief it was only in the Virgin Mary that this was fully realised. E.g., Zacharias and Elizabeth were called "righteous before God" (Lk. 1:6), and there is a command to be "perfect" in Deut. 18:13, but neither of these examples, nor the other Scriptural passages, provided an example of sinlessness (they were simply commands). Even in the Prayer of Manasseh (v. 8 ), which says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob "did not sin against" God, we do not find exactly the same thing as we are saying when we speak of the Theotokos (though this line about the sinlessness of the Patriarchs was one reason that the Catholics rejected this Prayer from their canon at Trent).

Orthodoxy envisions a working together of God--synergy. God does indeed help certain people from the beginning of their lives so that they might do and say what He has planned for them, but only insofar as they are capable according to 1) the purity of their soul; and 2) the way that God foreknows they will live later in life. In the case of the Virgin Mary, though, this "extra nudge" (which God can give to any of us at any time, from the womb until death) did not include an immaculate conception. Rather, at the dawn of the coming of the God-man, she was given the grace (according to the measure that she could accept it) to live the life that all people were commanded to live (ie. to be holy and perfect), and she did live that life. It was not a one time ZAP--you've got grace and can now give birth to God. Like any other person, she was given grace during her life as she grew in the holiness and loftiness of her soul, and was given that measure which she was able to handle.

Put in another way (in summary): beginning with a wholly different anthropological outlook, the Orthodox have nothing akin to the immaculate conception of Mary. Instead, we consider Mary to be the ultimate example (except Christ our God, of course) which we should follow, for she, being like us, actually reached the goal that the rest of us are so ardently attempting but continually failing to achieve. The Theotokos is the ultimate example of what this life would be like if we just led our lives according to the love and faith and hope of God.

Regarding the assumption: while the Orthodox do recognize with reverence the dormition of the Theotokos, and certain miracles that happened at that time, the Orthodox definately do not raise something like the (supposed) assumption to a dogmatic level. And this, in general, is the pattern of how Orthodoxy is different than Catholicism when it comes to Mary: Orthodoxy tends to be less explicit and dogmatic about it's doctrines. This can sometimes be maddening to an inquirer, as it makes it more difficult to get a handle on what exactly the Orthodox believe... but then salvation is a steep and rugged ascent, and easy answers are not necessarily the sign of true religion. :)

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Post by Phred »

I read St. John's book on the place of Mary in Orthodoxy, as Nicholas suggested. Good suggestion. However, if the book mentioned the teaching that Mary was sinless, I overlooked it.

And in addition, I came across a suggested morning prayer on an Orthodox website that stated (to and about Mary) that "we worship you." This was not an official website of any Orthodox jurisdiction, but it was still pretty startling...even the most zealous Catholics will not use the "w-word" in relation to Mary.

Regarding the sinlessness issue, could this be an area where the Roman and Eastern churches use different terminology and reasoning to describe essentially the same belief? Is there really that much of a difference between the "immaculate conception" and the contention that Mary lived an absolutely sinless life?

My instinctive reaction is to ask for the Scriptural citation for the complete sinlessness of Mary, but I know that is a Protestant criteria that doesn't carry much weight in Orthodoxy. Not to sound irreverent, but how could anyone know? Not that I would dare to compare myself to Mary (or any other saint), but I know a lot of my own sin is between my ears....

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