Please take the time to acquaint yourself more fully with the Orthodox institution of Eldership by enjoying this information.
In The LOVE Of Christ,
R M Malleev-Pokrovsky
In Response To Slander Of Elder Ephraim
Moderator: Mark Templet
More Edifying Information On Elders
Re: Balderdash?
Kollyvas wrote:Where has it been proved? Who are these other people? Show us some proof, and not Indiana List legerdemain. MY KNOWLEDGE IS FIRSTHAND, and yours is?!
I refuse to bow to you, sir, as an arbiter of "proof" in this case. There is no hope of convincing you, even should I buy the book itself and relate the offending passages word by word. And your use of the word "legerdemain" here is, as far as one can attempt to apply the idea of "sleight of hand" to a mailing list, an empty slander. The Indiana list is dominated by hotheaded ideologues, and the topic at hand has proven no exception; but I see nothing being hidden, and indeed (as you may discover for yourself) the question has been addressed elsewhere, and the same conclusion has been deduced. Putting all the pieces together, the picture is pretty clear to me.
As far as I'm concerned, you are simply one of many claiming witness to the situation. We've been down that road: I do not consider you a reliable witness. Take it or leave it; if you insist on debating or impugning your way out of that assessment, you'll simply be adding fuel to an already roaring blaze.
Modernism has nothing to do with it. If it is a modern flaw to insist that others be treated humanely, then Jesus is flawed.
The sanhedrin has nothing to do with it; I see no organized body making judgements.
Senatory McCarthy has nothing to do with it. I have no power to summon anyone to judgement, nor does any court exist here other than that of "each must descern for himself".
Secular humanism-- if it takes secular humanism to get people to treat others as Christ plainly taught, then I guess the secular humanists will be the ones hearing "well done, good and faithful servant".
And Optina? I bear no more responsibility for the crimes of the Boskeviks than you do, nor do any of those in Arizona, past or present. I have a certain disgusted fascination in how you throw these slanders around.
In my tradition we understand something like elders and we understand directorship. But the first thing anyone is ever taught about it is to avoid absolutely the kind of cultish behavior that is so often associated with Elder Ephraim and his followers. If athonite monasticism be attacked by proxy of this, well then, what of it? Athos is not Orthodoxy, and be it Orthodox, it way well be that it is now in need of reform. And I say this with no intention of denegrating the holiness that may be found there. But I have come to suspect that it suffers from a disease that seems to afflict traditionalist Orthodoxy almost across the board: namely, that there seems nobody empowered to call it to account.
As far as credulity is concerned, the old postings in this forum by yourself and others stands in witness to it.
What I am hearing said about St. Anthony's in particular echoes the considerable testimony we have from cults over the past few decades. The real problem here, it seems to me, is that you are unwilling to admit that unbelievers and heretics can see an evil in your church. That, sir, is pride, of the most evil and pernicious variety.
You do not speak any truth here, nothing but delusions and wrath against others.
Is this info for our protection? if so then I think mere hearsay isnt very good protection, Why not get a couple of people and go find out for yourselves,and maybe just maybe you will come to see something totally sorrowful,aND THAT WOULD BE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE LINING UP DAILY TO TALK TO eLDER EPHRAIM, HE ALMOST HAS A MONTH back log of people seeking spiritual advice even some coming from Greece itself....
The Fathers of the Church have written many times about how they were persecuted in this way.....................
Guilt By Accusation Is Not Guilt
Without proof, you cannot found your claims, and it is kind of hard to maintain I do not have a voice on the topic when your star witness says that I AM a FIRSTHAND witness and confidant of his. You DO act like an inquisitor, like Senator McCarthy, like those bolsheviks who liquidated Optina when you spread UNFOUNDED AND UNSUBSTANTIATED SLANDER ADMITTEDLY and maintain the guilt of another. You are part of the modernist, secular humanist sanhedrin, for you war against an institution of the Church reflecting their biases and their agenda. Whatever my posts may be or have been, the sine non qua is to PRESENT specific points of variance and not concoct blanket denunciations, AND I AM NOT THE ISSUE HERE. In sum, you don't have to bow to me, but provide EVIDENCE and a willingness to ascertain TRUTH or your agendized tirade and vitriole unravels on its own, and that is what I have illustrated.
Orthodoxia I Thanatos!
R M Mallev-Pokrovsky
PS Persecution is a mark of a certain type of spirit. We saw it in Russia, and now certain forces are trying to manifest it here. Fr. Seraphim was right. Isn't it strange how the subject of the Mystery of Iniquity is skirted: it is typical of the Protestants to pick and choose a decontextualized St. Paul whom they dissect like a gollum. Moreover, the tone of the UNSIGNED CGW sure seems to me to reflect a thorough ignorance of knowledge of the Orthodox Tradition, of history itself. All we have been handed is a big lie template, anger, agenda ADMITTEDLY LACKING ALL SUBSTANCE. And he's trying to distance himself from the bolsheviks?!
Are there any true elders anymore? Are there any people today spiritually capable of accepting such eldership? From what I've read, monasticism in the last days will decrease. People won't be able to obey their elders as they'd obey Christ. My impression is that most people, including those who love and support monasticism, agree that the examples set by saints of past centuries cannot and should not be followed to such an extent...We owe obedience to God and the teachings of the Church above all, so if an elder or spiritual director preaches something else...is it smart to follow in the name of obedience?
(I'm not attacking any specific elders or institutions or monasteries. I'm speaking more in general.)
Elders In Our Day
Christ is in our midst!
The Holy Elder Silouan maintained that when the last Elder goes to sleep in the Lord, that the approach of antichrist is near, for Elders are essentially people LIKE US being deified who reached dispassion and are conversing with God and sharing that wisdom with us, that enhypostasized grace of the Holy Spirit. The fact that they are PARTof us is why Dostoevsky illustrated the hyper-corruption of the reposed Elder Zosima, that Eldership is NOT removed but the path we are ALL called to follow. In an earlier post, you will find a link which will show pictures, teachings, lives of elders in our day. Yes, they are very real.
In the LOVE of Christ,
R M Malleev-Pokrovsky
