Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Discuss the holy Mysteries and the liturgical life of the Church such as the Hours, Vespers, Matins/Orthros, Typica, and the Divine Liturgy. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
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joasia
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by joasia »

Maria wrote:
NadirGP wrote:
Jean-Serge wrote:Such things do not exist in the orthodox church : there is no artolatry (adoration of the bread). Practically speaking, this bread is in the sanctuary, behind the altar, a place where only priests, deaconsand those allowed enter. In the orthodox church, this communion exists only to be consumed : "Take and eat", not "Take and adorate".
Jean-Serge,

You wrote:
“Such things do not exist in the orthodox church: there is no artolatry (adoration of the bread).”

It is my understanding that once the bread (and wine) has been consecrated, it is not bread any more, but changed into the Body of Jesus Christ. Why then ascribing this act of veneration in front of tabernacle … as “atolatry,” adoration of bread? Don’t you see that you are contradicting yourself in saying that?

This writing will elucidate my own thought on the matter. Please read here:
Are you implying that I am an idolater because I believe that our Lord's Precious Body and Blood are truly, really, and objectively present under the form of bread and wine in the Blessed Sacrament, and that, therefore, I believe I am bound to adore our Lord Jesus Christ wherever and however He may be present, being God? If so, then I am most certainly an idolater, as is 9/10 of the Christian world (including all of Old Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy, Chalcedonian Orthodoxy, the Assyrian Church, and Roman Catholicism) which believes in the Real Objective Presence of the True Body and Blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.
[See: http://philorthodox.blogspot.com.au/200 ... ry_13.html]

In Christ,
Nadir
Nadir,

You raise a good point. It seems like some Orthodox Priests are quick to condemn Catholics for adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Yet, at the Presanctified Liturgy, which was gifted to the Orthodox Christians by Pope St. Gregory the Great, we Orthodox Christians do fall down prostrate as the Presanctified Gifts (The Body and Blood of Christ) are brought out of the Tabernacle in procession and then placed on the altar. We are adoring Christ present in the Eucharist, are we not?

Below is the Cherubicon that is sung during the Presanctified Liturgy just before Holy Communion is distributed. Note that only the choir remains standing so that they can sing, but as soon as they finish singing, they make a prostration with the rest of the people while the Priest continues in procession to the Holy Altar with the Holy Gifts (the very Body and Blood of our Lord God and Savior, Jesus Christ).
  • Behold now the Heavenly Powers serve with us in an invisible manner; for behold the King of Glory passeth by.
    Behold the Mystical Sacrifice goeth out in perfect procession.
    Let us come forward in faith and longing that we may become partakers of eternal life.
    Alleluia.
Reference: Nassar, Seraphim, Divine Prayers and Services of the Catholic Orthodox Church of Christ (1938), Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese, 1993, p. 664
Except for Sundays, I always prostrate when the Holy Body and Blood of Christ is brought out at the time of Holy Communion. I believe that the monastics do that too. I don't know any Orthodox priests that would object to that. I do know that the adoration of the sacred heart of Christ is not Orthodox tradition. Maybe that's what they object to.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
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Maria
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by Maria »

joasia wrote:
Except for Sundays, I always prostrate when the Holy Body and Blood of Christ is brought out at the time of Holy Communion. I believe that the monastics do that too. I don't know any Orthodox priests that would object to that. I do know that the adoration of the sacred heart of Christ is not Orthodox tradition. Maybe that's what they object to.
Yes, Orthodox Christians do not worship body parts such as the Holy Face, the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the Sacred Wounds of Jesus, etc.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.
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Jean-Serge
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by Jean-Serge »

NadirGP wrote:
Jean-Serge wrote:
Maria wrote: We are adoring Christ present in the Eucharist, are we not?
Jean-Serge,

You are not answering Maria’s assertion, “We are adoring Christ present in the Eucharist, are we not?”
I answered saying "No", that as the first word of my sentence. We do not adore Christ present in the Eucharist. I were protestant, I would have asked a testimony from the bible...
Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.
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NadirGP
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by NadirGP »

I answered saying "No", that as the first word of my sentence. We do not adore Christ present in the Eucharist. I were protestant, I would have asked a testimony from the bible...

Dear Jean-Serge,

With respect and basing on what you said about not adoring Christ in the Eucharist, I cannot see the difference between being a Protestant and what you presume to be, an Orthodox Christian.
Maranatha,
Nadir
So Jesus was saying to those Ιουδαιους [Judeans] who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32
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Jean-Serge
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by Jean-Serge »

NadirGP wrote:
I answered saying "No", that as the first word of my sentence. We do not adore Christ present in the Eucharist. I were protestant, I would have asked a testimony from the bible...

Dear Jean-Serge,

With respect and basing on what you said about not adoring Christ in the Eucharist, I cannot see the difference between being a Protestant and what you presume to be, an Orthodox Christian.
Maranatha,
Nadir
I really don't understand what you're saying. We believe in true presence of Christ but we do not adore the Eucharist, that is made to be eaten AND drunk (for the wine). The adoration of eucharist seems to be a late medieval practice from the 11th century to retaliate against a so called Berenger of Tours who denied the presence of Christ in the eucharist, according to Wikipedia. Note that the period from 9th to 11th century is the period when the west invented a new type of spirituality. I said that the fact of prostrating did not mean an adoration necessarily because there so many prostrations done for example :

- when entering a church
- when venerating an icon
- when venerating relics
- when the priest says "the light of Christ illuminates the universe"
- at some prayers
etc

For me, it is a bad usage since eucharist is to be consumed and for veneration, there are icons and relics.
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NadirGP
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by NadirGP »

I really don't understand what you're saying. We believe in true presence of Christ but we do not adore the Eucharist, that is made to be eaten AND drunk (for the wine). The adoration of eucharist seems to be a late medieval practice from the 11th century to retaliate against a so called Berenger of Tours who denied the presence of Christ in the eucharist, according to Wikipedia. Note that the period from 9th to 11th century is the period when the west invented a new type of spirituality. I said that the fact of prostrating did not mean an adoration necessarily because there so many prostrations done for example :

- when entering a church
- when venerating an icon
- when venerating relics
- when the priest says "the light of Christ illuminates the universe"
- at some prayers
etc

For me, it is a bad usage since eucharist is to be consumed and for veneration, there are icons and relics.

Jean-Serge,

You do not understand me, perhaps, because you have not read the document I gave you to read. Did you read it?
Here is an excerpt:
When we consider the position of this Prayer, before any one, even the Priests, have received, yet after the Consecration, with its twofold assertion of Christ's Presence in Heaven, and His invisible Presence in the Eucharist, it is the more striking.
Then follows the Elevating the Holy Bread with the Exclamation: "Holy Things for Holy Persons," and when these words are uttered the Choir burst forth:
One Holy, one Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father.
What can this be but the adoration of a present Saviour!
http://anglicanhistory.org/dekoven/controversy1874.html

My understanding of the aforementioned document is that there is ground for adoration of the Eucharist there.

However, if you have read it and yet you maintain the same attitude as before, there is little more for me to say.

There is no such thing as freedom of choice unless there is freedom to refuse. David Hume
So Jesus was saying to those Ιουδαιους [Judeans] who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32
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Jean-Serge
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by Jean-Serge »

No, I did not notice the document and so, could not read it.
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