Marriage

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jgress
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Re: Marriage

Post by jgress »

Fair enough. :)
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Maria
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Re: Marriage

Post by Maria »

Jean-Serge wrote:I am not sure that we understood the same by "OUTSIDE THE CHURCH". Do you mean two orthodox marrying one another in a non orthodox ceremony; or an orthodox marrying a non-orthodox in a non-orthodox ceremony?
Either one would be wrong.

However, as Father Deacon Joseph stated, if an Orthodox Christian were to marry a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, or atheist in a non-Christian ceremony, then they would be penanced and not allowed to receive any of the Holy Mysteries.

In the case of the Orthodox Christian man marrying a Muslim, if he were to divorce her and send her back to Iraq, she would be killed by her relatives for adultery as her relatives do not recognize the civil marriage since he is not Muslim. Apparently, the OCA has allowed him to continue to be married to her with the hope that she will ultimately convert, but their marriage is not sacramental. He suffers a lot of verbal abuse from her as she calls him an infidel for not converting to Islam. Lord have mercy.

There was another man who had married a Muslim before he began inquiry classes. When he was received into the Antiochian Orthodox Church, he was allowed to receive communion and to remain married to her with the hope that she would become a Christian. She was quite self-willed and rebellious and caused her husband a lot of grief, but on her journey to Christ, she joined a Protestant sect. Ultimately through his prayers, she was received into the Antiochian Orthodox Church, and they were married in the church.

However, these above churches are within World Orthodoxy.

If a member of the True Orthodox Church, who knows better, deliberately marries a non-Christian, then he is risking his salvation. I have heard of Orthodox Christians who have been in this unhappy situation. Some remain estranged from the Church for the rest of their lives, blaming the Church for not recognizing their marriage, and dying outside of the Church. Others are blessed by God to have their spouse convert to Orthodoxy, and then have their marriage blessed in the Church.

In one case, when the converting spouse began to realize how much sorrow she had caused because her spouse could neither receive Holy Communion nor be a part of the Orthodox Church, she contacted the priest in private and then surprised her spouse by inviting him to witness her reception as a catechumen.
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Lydia
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Re: Marriage

Post by Lydia »

Okay. Two Roman Catholics are married in the Catholic Church.
The wife wants to be accepted into the True Orthodox Church. The husband refuses to renounce the RCC, but is fine with his wife's conversion.
Does her entrance into the Orthodox Church nullify her marriage in the eyes of the Orthodox Church? Is she free to marry an Orthodox man? Is there such as thing as a "natural marriage?"
jgress
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Re: Marriage

Post by jgress »

Lydia wrote:Okay. Two Roman Catholics are married in the Catholic Church.
The wife wants to be accepted into the True Orthodox Church. The husband refuses to renounce the RCC, but is fine with his wife's conversion.
Does her entrance into the Orthodox Church nullify her marriage in the eyes of the Orthodox Church? Is she free to marry an Orthodox man? Is there such as thing as a "natural marriage?"
No the marriage isn't nullified, since marriage is natural. If the husband later converts, however, then they should be crowned together in Church, in order to sanctify it.
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Maria
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Re: Marriage

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Lydia wrote:Okay. Two Roman Catholics are married in the Catholic Church.
The wife wants to be accepted into the True Orthodox Church. The husband refuses to renounce the RCC, but is fine with his wife's conversion.
Does her entrance into the Orthodox Church nullify her marriage in the eyes of the Orthodox Church? Is she free to marry an Orthodox man? Is there such as thing as a "natural marriage?"
Good question.

I have heard that World Orthodox Bishops will count living together before marriage as Strike 1 toward the three allowed marriages. For example, a Roman Catholic woman was "married" three times: her first husband died of cancer; she divorced another husband whom she had married in the RC church, but got an annulment; and then she lived in a common law marriage for two years. She converted to Orthodoxy, was received by Chrismation, and then fell in love with an Orthodox gentleman who had never been married. The Orthodox Bishop ruled that since she had three marriages, she could not be granted a blessing for a fourth marriage.

I have heard of divorced persons coming into the True Orthodox Church, and because they were Catholics, their baptism and previous marriages were not recognized as sacramental, so the husband was accepted by the Bishop and ordained as a Priest. On this point, those in World Orthodox criticize us and say that we are willing to tonsure or ordain any male as long as he is still breathing as Reader or Priest.

With the acceptance of Met. Agafangel's jurisdiction as a Sister Church of the GOC-K could this pose a problem? Apparently, he accepts Roman Catholics through Chrismation and recognizes their baptism which was the practice during Pre-Revolutionary Russia. Would Met Agafangel also recognize their marriages in the Roman Catholic Church and stop the practice of ordaining previously married Roman Catholic men who convert to Orthodoxy?
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Suaiden
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Re: Marriage

Post by Suaiden »

We should avoid the term "natural" marriage when what we mean is *earthly*, or *civil* marriage. Two people cohabitating are not married; however, in some states and regions they are seen as "married" by common law. There are certain norms which existed before the legislation of the Church, and the Church used those norms for previous recognition: vows, mutual sharing, lifelong declaration, taking the norms from the Jewish and Greek world in which She appeared. It did not declare "natural" marriages. Some folks like to say they're married when they never bothered to, et cetera, et cetera.

"Natural" marriage implies there is a way in nature to marry. There is not. Marriage is ordained by God and given specifically to humanity. Not nature. In general, then, the Church recognizes the *intent* of the parties (whether a heterodox community, et cetera) and is considerably looser when we are not dealing with such marriages. In general, the use of economia with heterodox marriages has matched with a period of moral laxity in the modern West-- and has had similar results.

I have seen the "natural marriage" arguments stretch the definitions of concubinage, and lead to serious foolishness on the part of troublemaking clergy with their own agendas, which I have experienced personally.
Last edited by Suaiden on Fri 6 June 2014 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jgress
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Re: Marriage

Post by jgress »

Well the question at hand is whether a marriage contracted outside the church has or can have any validity. You seem to be saying it does not, but then why does the Church not insist that a person entering the Church alone leave their spouse? Or is that what you meant by recognizing the "intent"?

I believe St Ambrose also argued that a man who divorces before baptism is not eligible for the priesthood, so he certainly believed that marriage outside the Church had some substance.

This is of course about two non-Orthodox people marrying and then one converting while the other remains outside the Church, just to be clear.
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