Inquirer into True Orthodoxy-question

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khomes
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Inquirer into True Orthodoxy-question

Post by khomes »

Hello all, I am currently a catechumen in an antiochian Orthodox church. I am also an inquirer into True Orthodoxy. My conscience is telling me that I have to leave the antiochian church due to the fact that they will not baptize me ( I come from a catholic background). I am debating on whether to go to my local ROCOR church, go to our GOC-K church about 2 hours away or join Met. John's synod.

I also have some questions for everybody.

What lead you to your respective Old Calendar jurisdiction?
For those applicable: what made you leave mainstream Orthodoxy?
Do you know of any good reading material on this subject?

What do you guys think of those Orthodox elders who highly criticized the old calendarist? Ie Joseph the Hesychast, Elder Paisios, etc.
any other insight would be great. This is a very difficult subject for me. It is all quite confusing and my Wife and I just want some clear cut answers/ proof if possible. We just want the best for ours and our kid's salvation...

I was baptised into the Genuine Orthodox Church with the name Matthew on March 1 2016

"Preserve my children: patience, compassion, wisdom, gentleness, humility, silence, fasting, prayer. Prayer gives humility, modesty, and obedience. He who keeps these reasons that lead to the imitation of Christ, provides for the salvation of his immortal soul; he who despises them, despises his own salvation."
- St. Matthew the New Confessor

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Priest Antonios
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Re: Inquirer into True Orthodoxy-question

Post by Priest Antonios »

Khomes,

Welcome to e-cafe! I'm glad you found us here and I hope that you find the help you are looking for.

I can truly appreciate the situation that you are in. As a married man with three crazy and wonderful children, I understand the amount of stress a decision like this puts on a person. Also, please know that the confusion that you're dealing with is not only normal but to be expected. What else could be expected from our adversary, the enemy of Truth?

My wife and I were chrismated into the OCA in 2004 right after the birth of our first child. The priest did not want to baptise us either. While I wanted to be baptized, understanding that I was outside the Church, in humility you do what your priest and bishop tell you, right? Well, I obviously had not yet sorted through all of the doctrinal differences between, what is now known as, True Orthodoxy and World Orthodoxy at that point. Cutting through years of struggle - eventually God saw fit to send us on a journey that crossed this country and another. Up to that point we were tearfully trying to be content to remain where we were and work out our salvation in fear and trembling. What became unavoidably clear is that the blanket accusations of "ecumenism" that were levied against World Orthodoxy were really not at all exaggerated. We witnessed or ended up participating in, at one level or another, communing of Monophysites, communing of Roman Catholics, RC's being allowed to serve in the sanctuary (alter), communing professional astrologers/spiritists... I don't think I need to go any further. When we questioned the priests we only got answers like "there are worse things", "they say we're close enough" or they would change the subject and then try and put it back on us by informing us that we simply needed to get more involved. Anyway, I think you can understand why we finally realized that we had not choice by to leave mainstream Orthodoxy.

Why did we choose to be received into the Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia? Honestly, it was not even on the radar to begin with. I was hoping to end up in one of the ROCOR groups. After all, it was really because of ROCOR and the writings that were produced in conjunction with ROCOR that we came to any form of Orthodoxy to begin with. But, through the intersessions of St. John of San Francisco we came into contact with Met. John (long story). After speaking with Vladyka John for about 9 months we made the trip to New Jersey and were finally baptized into Christ. Now, from personal experience I can tell you that becoming True Orthodox has changed our lives the way one would hope converting to the Truth would. Has is been easy? Not at all. But the grace of God is really present.

I know I rambled a bit, over simplified a lot and covered a lot of ground in very broad strokes. I'm sorry for any lack of clarity but I wanted to answer your honest inquiry and I'm looking forward to getting to know you and learn more about your journey.

Sincerely in Christ,
Dcn Antonios

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khomes
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Re: Inquirer into True Orthodoxy-question

Post by khomes »

Thank you Dcn. This whole situation is causing us quite a bit if stress. I also have OCD/anxiety. So this is for what is causing me stress. My antiochian Priest told me that I should go to a therapist to work it out and he showed me 2 Cor 12:8-9
"Concerning this thing, I begged the Lord three times that it might depart from me, but he replied to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' And so, it is with joy that I would rather [find] glory* in my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest on me."

He did this saying that God's grace and will are manifest in our weaknesses. That his grace is sufficient for me and that Chrismation everything lacking will be made whole. That plus the lifetime confession, which is known as second baptism. He concluded by saying, " do we have faith in the mysteries or the awesome God behind the Mysteries? God can made complete all that is lacking and infirm"

What do you think of what he said? This is why I am going back-and-forth. I have half the people telling me one thing, and the other half telling me something different. Something is drawing to the old calendar churches. I don't know why. At the same time, I am very hesitant...

I was baptised into the Genuine Orthodox Church with the name Matthew on March 1 2016

"Preserve my children: patience, compassion, wisdom, gentleness, humility, silence, fasting, prayer. Prayer gives humility, modesty, and obedience. He who keeps these reasons that lead to the imitation of Christ, provides for the salvation of his immortal soul; he who despises them, despises his own salvation."
- St. Matthew the New Confessor

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Isaakos
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Re: Inquirer into True Orthodoxy-question

Post by Isaakos »

Dear Khomes,

I can assure you that the Genuine Orthodox Churches, the Old Calendar Churches of Greece, are the place to be. 100% no doubt. I am a former Traditionalist Catholic, attending the SSPX and the indult Latin mass. While reading the writings of Vatican I which defined papal infallibility, I came to realize a huge contradiction: This "Ecumenical" council issued a decree on Revelation saying we cannot understand scripture in a way DIFFERENT than the holy Fathers of the Church understood it. Yet in their definition of papal infallibility, they refer to scripture without quoting a single holy Father to back up their position! Silence! They don't even follow their own rules. Or when they defined the Assumption of the virgin Mary as a dogma. A DOGMA? Whether Christ took his mother directly into heaven three days after her death is a historical question, but not a DOGMATIC one, it has no relation to Theology, Christology or Ecclesiology. Plus, if it really is a dogma, and necessary to believe for salvation, did Mary have to believe it before she died in order to be worthy of the Assumption in the first place? lol. Rome is full of Contradictions if you look.

Now, here was my mistake that landed me in New Calendarism/World orthodoxy (Heresy) for a couple years, and it is a kind of blindness:

I was fed up with the Pope, with his ecumenism, with his outright heretical statements, his willingness to compromise Catholic Dogma, and the lack of fidelity to the fathers. Not to mention the vast liturgical reforms, the inability to effectively fight and check the liberal current in Papism, etc. Not to mention joint prayers with heretics and schismatics. So, when I looked into Orthodoxy, I saw something truly wonderful and beautiful, but there was a blindness: I had just got done justifying my severance from the Pope on the basis of his innovations, and failed to recognize his PARTNERS in all these innovation! And who are his Partners? Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, Patriarch John of Antioch, the Patriarchs of Alexandria, Romania, Russia, Bulgaria, etc. They were all doing what he was doing! They or their delegates joined in joint prayers with the Pope. They made joint declarations pronouncing BOTH are equal GUARDIANS OF THE ONE APOSTOLIC FAITH. Really? Cause I am sure one of you is a heretic...SO in my enthusiasm, I was blind to the fact that the Orthodoxy I was entering was culpable of all the same faults I had just criticized Rome for.

BUT, God is merciful! I came to learn that all these events and compromises on the side of World Orthodoxy can be reduced back to a very important document issued by the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 1920. It was titled, "To the Churches of Christ, Wherever They May Be" Not a promising opening line. In this document, it is explicitly asserted that the Heretics and Schismatics, form, with the Orthodox, one Church, being members of the one household of Christ. It is also asserted that NOW we need to work toward making the path to a deeper union possible. It then lists several steps to aid in the implementation of this understanding of our "Unity" as a Church. Guess which event is number one on that list? The Implementation of a common calendar so that the Heterodox and the Orthodox can celebrate the great feasts at the same time.

So, we see the Implementation of a New Calendar was a means of serving a heretical notion of the Church, that it is the assembly of all "True Believers" regardless of their doctrinal beliefs. This is a blatant lie, the Church of Christ is ONE and Cannot be adulterous, as St.Cyprian of Carthage says. When the Calendar Change came in Greece in 1924, many of the Monks and Priest Monks of Mt Athos revolted and declared the Church of Greece to be schismatic. About 1/4 of the Greek Population at one point was up in arms against the Calendar Change. But even worse, the Church of Greece itself ADMITTED it was schismatic, when the year before his election as Archbishop of Greece, Chrysostomos Papadopolous had written that "Even though the Church of Greece is Autocephalous, she cannot separate herself from the others and adopt the new calendar without becoming schismatic in relation to the others." But then, the next year, he did it anyway. So, who is the schismatic?

And to this day, we fight innovation and the heresy of ecumenism and proclaim our faith in Orthodoxy!

Blessed is the man who has volunteered to hold and keep until the end of his life our holy Orthodox faith, the faith of the one Church of Christ and our mother, the Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Archbishop Matthew Karpathakis

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Maria
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Re: Inquirer into True Orthodoxy-question

Post by Maria »

khomes wrote:

Hello all, I am currently a catechumen in an antiochian Orthodox church. I am also an inquirer into True Orthodoxy. My conscience is telling me that I have to leave the antiochian church due to the fact that they will not baptize me ( I come from a catholic background). I am debating on whether to go to my local ROCOR church, go to our GOC-K church about 2 hours away or join Met. John's synod.

Joining the Antiochians would be problematic. Have you read about the recent joint prayer meeting between the Antiochian Patriarch of Antioch and the Oriental Syrians? Patriarch John is active in the Ecumenical movement, and he would be your hierarch if you were to be chrismated by the Antiochian priest.

Joining the ROCOR would likewise be a compromise as the ROCOR-MP is in communion with the EP and the Antiochian Patriarch.

Image

Ecumenism in action: H.H Ignatius Aphrem II the Patriarch of Antioch and all of East of the Syriac Orthodox Church prayed with H.B John X the Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch on August 18, 2014.

I will post more later.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Maria
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Re: Inquirer into True Orthodoxy-question

Post by Maria »

Isaakos wrote:

Dear Khomes,

I can assure you that the Genuine Orthodox Churches, the Old Calendar Churches of Greece, are the place to be. 100% no doubt. I am a former Traditionalist Catholic, attending the SSPX and the indult Latin mass. While reading the writings of Vatican I which defined papal infallibility, I came to realize a huge contradiction: This "Ecumenical" council issued a decree on Revelation saying we cannot understand scripture in a way DIFFERENT than the holy Fathers of the Church understood it. Yet in their definition of papal infallibility, they refer to scripture without quoting a single holy Father to back up their position! Silence! They don't even follow their own rules. Or when they defined the Assumption of the virgin Mary as a dogma. A DOGMA? Whether Christ took his mother directly into heaven three days after her death is a historical question, but not a DOGMATIC one, it has no relation to Theology, Christology or Ecclesiology. Plus, if it really is a dogma, and necessary to believe for salvation, did Mary have to believe it before she died in order to be worthy of the Assumption in the first place? lol. Rome is full of Contradictions if you look.

Now, here was my mistake that landed me in New Calendarism/World orthodoxy (Heresy) for a couple years, and it is a kind of blindness:

I was fed up with the Pope, with his ecumenism, with his outright heretical statements, his willingness to compromise Catholic Dogma, and the lack of fidelity to the fathers. Not to mention the vast liturgical reforms, the inability to effectively fight and check the liberal current in Papism, etc. Not to mention joint prayers with heretics and schismatics. So, when I looked into Orthodoxy, I saw something truly wonderful and beautiful, but there was a blindness: I had just got done justifying my severance from the Pope on the basis of his innovations, and failed to recognize his PARTNERS in all these innovation! And who are his Partners? Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, Patriarch John of Antioch, the Patriarchs of Alexandria, Romania, Russia, Bulgaria, etc. They were all doing what he was doing! They or their delegates joined in joint prayers with the Pope. They made joint declarations pronouncing BOTH are equal GUARDIANS OF THE ONE APOSTOLIC FAITH. Really? Cause I am sure one of you is a heretic...SO in my enthusiasm, I was blind to the fact that the Orthodoxy I was entering was culpable of all the same faults I had just criticized Rome for.

BUT, God is merciful! I came to learn that all these events and compromises on the side of World Orthodoxy can be reduced back to a very important document issued by the Ecumenical Patriarchate in 1920. It was titled, "To the Churches of Christ, Wherever They May Be" Not a promising opening line. In this document, it is explicitly asserted that the Heretics and Schismatics, form, with the Orthodox, one Church, being members of the one household of Christ. It is also asserted that NOW we need to work toward making the path to a deeper union possible. It then lists several steps to aid in the implementation of this understanding of our "Unity" as a Church. Guess which event is number one on that list? The Implementation of a common calendar so that the Heterodox and the Orthodox can celebrate the great feasts at the same time.

So, we see the Implementation of a New Calendar was a means of serving a heretical notion of the Church, that it is the assembly of all "True Believers" regardless of their doctrinal beliefs. This is a blatant lie, the Church of Christ is ONE and Cannot be adulterous, as St.Cyprian of Carthage says. When the Calendar Change came in Greece in 1924, many of the Monks and Priest Monks of Mt Athos revolted and declared the Church of Greece to be schismatic. About 1/4 of the Greek Population at one point was up in arms against the Calendar Change. But even worse, the Church of Greece itself ADMITTED it was schismatic, when the year before his election as Archbishop of Greece, Chrysostomos Papadopolous had written that "Even though the Church of Greece is Autocephalous, she cannot separate herself from the others and adopt the new calendar without becoming schismatic in relation to the others." But then, the next year, he did it anyway. So, who is the schismatic?

And to this day, we fight innovation and the heresy of ecumenism and proclaim our faith in Orthodoxy!

Excellent post!

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Priest Antonios
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Re: Inquirer into True Orthodoxy-question

Post by Priest Antonios »

Khomes,

The internal struggles were by far the most difficult for me too. As far as whether a therapist would be helpful, that's beyond the scope of a few posts on an internet forum. However, I will stick my neck out a tad and suggest that any psychological struggles are, at least, largely exacerbated by the spiritual struggle you are currently engaged in. And have no doubt, you are engaged in a serious struggle for your soul and those of your family.

The priest you are talking to is right, God can make all things whole. But we must, for our part, accept the whole Truth. The Truth Himself is drawing you and the adversary is going to use all sorts of little tricks to keep you from Him. Remember the words of St Mark of Ephesus - “There can be no compromise in matters of the Orthodox Faith.”

After speaking with a lot of people about their journeys something that seems fairly common is a sort of "tipping point". A point where everything comes to a head and a decision needs to be made one way or the other. It sounds like you may be near one of these "tipping points".

Please know that you and your family are in our prayers.

In Christ,
Dcn Antonios

PS - I'll send you a PM shortly.

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