Western Rite Orthodoxy

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Justice
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Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by Justice »

I thought Patriarch Tikhon did establish a Western-Rite Russian church? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Justice
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Re: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by Justice »

Justice wrote:

I thought Patriarch Tikhon did establish a Western-Rite Russian church? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I read this wrong I remember Partriarch Tikhon did establish a Western-Rite in Russia and America.

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Justice wrote:
Justice wrote:
Barbara wrote:

Yes, a Western-Rite RTOC led by Archbishop Tikhon sounds totally comical !
I am chuckling right now at the very idea.

I thought Patriarch Tikhon did establish a Western-Rite Russian church? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I read this wrong I remember Partriarch Tikhon did establish a Western-Rite in Russia and America.

He did not technically establish a Western Rite Particular Church. He attempted to receive parishes that would retain the Western Rite, but didn't as the Anglicans who had petitioned him about the matter never joined. One of the remnants of this attempt is the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon, a revised version of the Anglican liturgy created by Saint Tikhon with the approval of the Russian Orthodox Church that (if I recall correctly) ROCOR and the Antiochian Archdiocese adopted for use in some former Protestant parishes that have joined the Orthodox Church en-masse since the 1970s.

The Russian Orthodox Church had a Western Rite project for a while if I recall correctly, though they eventually disbanded it. There's also the French Orthodox Church, a mixture of the Western Rite and the (Russian) Eastern Rite which successfully joined the ROCOR under Saint John of San Francisco, but left after his repose. Part of it, if I recall correctly, remains independent but still desires communion with the Orthodox Church. However, their attempts have been unsuccessful. A few parishes in France eventually gave up and independently joined the Russian Orthodox Church and I think the Georgian Orthodox Church.

A portion of the French Orthodox Church has since united itself with the Celtic Orthodox Church and the Orthodox Church of the Gauls, two groups which had been created by the Oriental Orthodox Church but failed to remain in communion with them. Today this communion is known as the Communion of Western Orthodox Churches. This group is not stable theologically and has a good relationship with the Episcopalians (though they are not in communion with them), something that should say a lot about them. One positive thing that I will note: some of them have nice vestments.

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Re: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by Justice »

He did not technically establish a Western Rite Particular Church. He attempted to receive parishes that would retain the Western Rite, but didn't as the Anglicans who had petitioned him about the matter never joined. One of the remnants of this attempt is the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon, a revised version of the Anglican liturgy created by Saint Tikhon with the approval of the Russian Orthodox Church that (if I recall correctly) ROCOR and the Antiochian Archdiocese adopted for use in some former Protestant parishes that have joined the Orthodox Church en-masse since the 1970s.

The Antiochian and ROCOR have a false Western-RIte as they usually just adopt a Traditionalist Roman Catholic service and take out the Filioque and other innovations.

The Russian Orthodox Church had a Western Rite project for a while if I recall correctly, though they eventually disbanded it. There's also the French Orthodox Church, a mixture of the Western Rite and the (Russian) Eastern Rite which successfully joined the ROCOR under Saint John of San Francisco, but left after his repose. Part of it, if I recall correctly, remains independent but still desires communion with the Orthodox Church. However, their attempts have been unsuccessful. A few parishes in France eventually gave up and independently joined the Russian Orthodox Church and I think the Georgian Orthodox Church.

I heard of NFTU that they disbanded it in 2013 if I'm not mistaken. Why didn't they just try the Russian Orthodox Church directly after the ROCOR denied their request?

A portion of the French Orthodox Church has since united itself with the Celtic Orthodox Church and the Orthodox Church of the Gauls, two groups which had been created by the Oriental Orthodox Church but failed to remain in communion with them. Today this communion is known as the Communion of Western Orthodox Churches. This group is not stable theologically and has a good relationship with the Episcopalians (though they are not in communion with them), something that should say a lot about them. One positive thing that I will note: some of them have nice vestments.

I have heard that a church called the French Orthodox Church was in the Monophysite communion, though I thought they left when the British Orthodox Church left. Though I didn't know about a "chalcedonian French church.

One positive thing that I will note: some of them have nice vestments.

I agree I love the Western-Rite mitre and vestments.

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Justice wrote:

The Antiochian and ROCOR have a false Western-RIte as they usually just adopt a Traditionalist Roman Catholic service and take out the Filioque and other innovations.

You're mistaken, then. Usually they use the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon which is an Anglo-Catholic liturgy, through a rare few have adopted the Liturgy of Saint Gregory. The Liturgy of Saint Gregory does, of course, have a lot in common with a Traditionalist Roman Catholic service, as the Latin Mass (minus the additions that came later) used to be the primary liturgy of the west - which isn't a bad thing at all. Also, I'm baffled that you're criticizing ROCOR here, as they are doing what they've been doing now since the 1970s. (And for even longer than that if you want to include the work of Saint John of San Francisco). You're practically criticizing your own tradition with this critique, which is kind of hilarious.

Justice wrote:

I heard of NFTU that they disbanded it in 2013 if I'm not mistaken. Why didn't they just try the Russian Orthodox Church directly after the ROCOR denied their request?

You're mistaken, as the 2013 decision to disband the western rite was promptly reversed when it became apparent that the apparent issue was really just one bishop's fault.

And they did try the Russian Orthodox Church, and they are still trying. There's too many problems though apparently, probably something to do with them retaining their current hierarchy, but that's simply speculation.

Justice wrote:

I have heard that a church called the French Orthodox Church was in the Monophysite communion, though I thought they left when the British Orthodox Church left. Though I didn't know about a "chalcedonian French church.

I don't know about that; but yes, there was a Chalcedonian French Orthodox Church which was formed under the direction of ROCOR and Saint John of San Francisco.

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Re: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by Justice »

You're mistaken, then. Usually they use the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon which is an Anglo-Catholic liturgy, through a rare few have adopted the Liturgy of Saint Gregory. The Liturgy of Saint Gregory does, of course, have a lot in common with a Traditionalist Roman Catholic service, as the Latin Mass (minus the additions that came later) used to be the primary liturgy of the west - which isn't a bad thing at all. Also, I'm baffled that you're criticizing ROCOR here, as they are doing what they've been doing now since the 1970s. (And for even longer than that if you want to include the work of Saint John of San Francisco). You're practically criticizing your own tradition with this critique, which is kind of hilarious.

I'm not against the Western-Rite at all, In fact one of the Old Calendarist jurisdictions keeps the Western-Rite practice for all of it's churches. I recommend you watch this talk between Hieromonk Enoch and Deacon Joseph on NFTU.net, its called "What is the Western-RIte?". In it, it talks about how the MP and Antiochian World Orthodox churches are allowing the false Western-Rite to exist in World Orthodoxy.

Link: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/nftu/2012/ ... ite-debate

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Barbara
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Re: Western Rite Orthodoxy

Post by Barbara »

There was a confusion between contemporary Archbishop Tikhon of the RTOC and early 20th century Patriarch Tikhon of All Russia.

Quite interesting updates - thank you, NCYet.

I also like the miters especially of the Western Rite. The vestments are pretty, too, but it's the mitre that is so distinctive in my opinion.

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