Immaculate Conception dogma

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Barbara
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Post by Barbara »

Xenondrum, nope I was right. I knew that this apparition was called in full "Our Lady of Mt Carmel of Garabandal". I was quite sure that on Her arm was draped a version of a Brown Scapular, associated always with Our Lady of Mt Carmel. I was edified by the material on the mantiple, however. That is really interesting. Thanks !

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One of the four young Cantabrian girl visionaries holds up a Cross to be kissed by Our Lady of Mt Carmel and given out to one of the spectators

A Catholic Deacon John confirmed that this is indeed the Brown Scapular here :

"At Garabandal, one finds indeed the figure of a small mountain on one side of the Scapular that Our Lady of Mount Carmel wears on her right arm. This mountain (the “Muhraka”) symbolizes the confrontation that occurred on Mount Carmel between Elijah and Baal’s false prophets. A cross is drawn on the other side: a clear indication of the divine source of that famous sacramental."

https://whatisgarabandal.wordpress.com/ ... ay/page/2/

I have seen other Scapulars looking like this, that's why it took only a second to recognize.

In this illustration, Our Lady has a halo of stars, which surely refers back to the apparitions at the rue du Bac in Paris in 1830, where a medal originally called the Medal of the Immaculate Conception was given. [ Going back to Extranjero's topic for the thread. ] On the reverse of the medal 12 stars were inscribed.
However, on the illustration that you chose, and those which often appear as I search, the halo of stars is pulled strangely low. I don't know where the artist got that bizarre look.
It looks curiously like the habit of Sister Lucy of Fatima when she was a Dorothean nun.
Image

PS. Maria I only now saw your post. There are different scapulars, one type being that worn by monks for a millennia around the neck and shoulders and over the anatomic scapula, as you pointed out. Whereas Sacramentals are comparatively small objects the size of a couple of postage stamps. These are meant to be worn by anyone : laity as well as clergy.

As far as not being depicted with a veil, I agree. But I guess the apparition did not wear one ! Could this be ?
Well, I try to study Orthodox apparitions of the Queen of Heaven. I notice - correct me if anyone has contrary information - NEVER is Her appearance described !
Only the viewer's behavior and reactions to the August Mother of God's arrival are narrated. Such as "I fell at Her feet in awe". So we don't really have a way to know the personal appearance of Our Lady - not even what color dress She wore - when appearing to the Orthodox monks and nuns and lay people of the past 2,000 years. We assume She looked just like She does in Icons. But there is no concrete evidence I have come across that I can remember offhand.

Many of such scenes have been painted in pictures or appeared in Icons, such as the famous Apparition of the Heavenly Queen to St Sergius of Radonezh with Apostles Peter and John.
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But these are the iconographer's creations. Not based on details provided by the Saints themselves.

So really no one East or West can say exactly how the Queen of Heaven looks.

About Garabandal, it was an ANTI-modernist apparition, not a progressive one. The warning was expressed far more carefully there than at Fatima, for example, or any other reported apparition [ many of which were obviously wrong ].
Given during the notorious Vatican II Council which decimated the Catholic Church, the primary message could not have been more pointed :
"Many cardinals, many bishops, and many priests are on the road to perdition and are taking many souls with them."
Hardly applause for those prelates and clergymen ushering in the unfortunate liberal and Protestantizing reforms of this ruinous conference.

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Barbara
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Post by Barbara »

As far as Xenondrum's observation about the side on which the Queen of Heaven holds Her Child, I had never noticed that aspect !

However, look at the Our Lady of Perpetual Help Icon, an authentic Orthodox Icon, where She also holds Him in her left arm :

Image

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Barbara
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Post by Barbara »

Extranjero, I had missed your answer, thanks for responding.

Are you working in Japan ? That must be extremely difficult to be there. Will you be staying long ?
There is the Cathedral in Tokyo built by St Nicholas [Kasatkin] of Japan, if you get a chance to visit it -

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Holy Resurrection Cathedral, built 1891

However, this Church is under the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, so take great care with whom you speak if you do go. Just interesting for historical purposes.

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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Post by xenondrum »

Hey Barbara,

The demonic shapeshifter, Lucifer, deceives many. He will put on a devout imitation of the the Virgin Mary or even Christ, but he changes things because he cannot and will not completely change into the Holy Ones of God. Recently, especially in the last 500 years, Satan has increased his fake appearances.

Thus, at Garbandal, the apparition is fake because of too many discrepancies, inconsistencies, and definitely more than one reversal. This is the devil's doing as the devil deliberately reverses things to confuse us. Anything propagated by Rome after 800 A.D. and especially after the Great Schism of 1054 must be questioned and properly discerned. This is shown in the Dialogues of St. Catherine of Siena where St. Catherine is taught discernment after she was given a fake appearance by Satan.

Inconsistencies, discrepancies and reversals in the Garbandal fake apparition:
(1) A significant discrepancy: No veil is worn by the lady at Garbandal, yet a double headcovering is worn by Our Lady of Perpetual Help. In fact, it is a cap (snood) with a veil pinned on top so that no hair is exposed.
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(2) A significant reversal: The child is held by the lady of Garbandal in her left arm, instead of her right as in the Vladimir Icon, which was painted by the Evangelist Saint Luke.
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Therefore, Barbara, we do have an idea of what the Virgin Mary looked like as St. Luke painted at least four icons of the Virgin Mary when he visited her while she was still alive. One of these icons was painted on the wood of her kitchen table. These ancient icons are used as "templates" for our icons today.
(3) Yes, In the Icon of Perpetual Help, the Christ Child is held in Our Lady's left arm in a very protective manner so that He will not fall. However, notice also that the Christ Child is holding Our Lady's right hand in both of His hands. The Christ Child looks in fear at the symbols of torture (the Cross, the spear, and the sponge of vinegar) and holds onto His Mother Mary for protection.
(4) In another significant discrepancy, the lady of Garbandal holds up her babe in a very unguarded and unprotected way that could lead to the infant falling. If my wife or I had ever held our son in this manner, we would have been accused of endangering him. Yes, there are different versions of the Garbandal woman, some show her holding onto the child's chest with her right hand, while others show the Garbandal woman not holding onto him at all, but with her right hand pulled away to the side. Nevertheless, these are significant differences from the recognized Icons of our Lady the Theotokos.
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(5) Notice also that Our Lady points to Her Christ Child with her right hand, directing the faithful to Him. However, the lady of Garbandal does not point to her babe at all. Instead, she wears the false maniple over her right arm wanting everyone to see this maniple, thus directing people away from her babe.
(6) Our lady of Garbandal wears a reversed maniple over her right arm instead of her left. The priestly maniple is worn by a priest as part of his liturgical vesting for the Mass. It is worn on his left arm, and it does have the Cross on it. That mountain (with no cross on top of it) is another fake addition.
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(7) The reversed maniple worn as a substitution for the scapular should have never been done as it is a false imitation of the maniple, which is a sign of the priesthood. This will confuse the laity as early Christianity teaches that the Virgin Mary was never a priest nor a bishop.
(8) A Roman Catholic scapular adapted for the laity is to be worn with a ribbon attached to the two rectangular ends so that the cloth pieces drape across shoulders in the front and back. The scapular of Mt. Carmel was a post-schism adaptation of the post-schism scapular, it was never a maniple, which is a handkerchief used to wipe one's nose. The scapular is not to be worn on the right arm but across the shoulders. Even the metal form that is worn on a chain around the neck is discouraged.

Do you see how even deacons, priests, and even Catholic Bishops have been deceived by Lucifer who has appeared as Mary? Look at fake virgin of Medjugorje. That apparition is also of the devil as Michael Davies indicates in his book. Look again at all those fake apparitions in bathroom windows and even in toast sold on E-bay. Look how far this whole seeking of apparitions has gone.

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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Post by Extranjero »

Are you working in Japan ? That must be extremely difficult to be there. Will you be staying long ?
There is the Cathedral in Tokyo built by St Nicholas [Kasatkin] of Japan, if you get a chance to visit it -

Thanks Barbara. I'm here since four years about. Yes, is difficult, but interesting. I like japanese people and also the country. What is a real torture is the language. Is not an indoaryan language (like the most european languages) so one has not a basis to lean, there are not similarities nor analogies, then one has to start from absolute zero. And the writing is ideographic so is another problem to bear. But I repeat, is interesting.

I hope go to the Tokyo Cathedral some time. Now I am attending to an Orthodox Church in Osaka. Is little and warm, and has a beautiful iconostasis brought from Russia 100 years ago. The father in charge is a kind mand, and even if we canno't speak so much, I got a good connection with him.

But all this about Orthodox Church is new for me, so I do not want be hurry...

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Cyprian
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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Post by Cyprian »

Maria wrote:

If you have read The Dialogues of Saint Catherine of Siena, then you most likely remember the warning from Mary and Her Son, Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, who both warned Catherine that the devil can appear as an Angel of Light or even as Mary or the Lord Jesus. However, since the Devil is a shapeshifter, he cannot maintain that fraud for any length of time. Furthermore, the person(s) receiving that fraudulent vision will become confused or proud as the deceitful Devil will also tempt.

How is it that you know for certain that it was the Lord Jesus Christ and His all-pure Mother who were dialoguing with Catherine of Siena?

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Re: Immaculate Conception dogma

Post by Cyprian »

xenondrum wrote:

Thus, at Garbandal, the apparition is fake because of too many discrepancies, inconsistencies, and definitely more than one reversal. This is the devil's doing as the devil deliberately reverses things to confuse us. Anything propagated by Rome after 800 A.D. and especially after the Great Schism of 1054 must be questioned and properly discerned. This is shown in the Dialogues of St. Catherine of Siena where St. Catherine is taught discernment after she was given a fake appearance by Satan.

Catherine of Siena has not been recognized as a saint by the Orthodox Church. Furthermore, how do we know that she was taught proper discernment? Can you cite the specific passage you have in mind?

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