On Hallowe'en

[CGW]

While I'm at it:

I'm also getting a little tired, Joasia, of having to rub your face in the research you ought to be doing before you pass these rumors along.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

CGW,

Please, no rubbing anyones face in anything.

[joasia]

CGW,

You must pardon me if I doubt such early (or in the case of reruns, such after-the-fact) memories, but as far as I can ascertain, Wicca barely began to emerge into the public consciousness about the time that the show went off the air.

Prime t.v. is a channel I get that plays old shows. So I saw it around one month ago. I don't know what you're referring to about my memories after-the-fact. My comment was about witches. Darin had a client who wanted to use the image of a witch with a wart and Samatha and her mother were appalled. So, the idea of telling the public that we shouldn't consider witches and witchcraft a negative thing was being planted back then. Although, the documentary I saw was about white witches...the art of witchcraft, spells and such are not considered the works of God. Am I wrong about that? Perhaps you know of some Orthodox witches and warlocks??

I actually know (a bit distantly, to be sure) a few actual wiccans.

You know them or you don't know them? If it's distant, then it doesn't sound like they are close friends. Do they give you the intimate details about their practices behind closed doors?

I think you are just passing rumors and legends.

So I'm suppose to support witchcraft?

Their practice is legal in all states, because that is what the constitution requires. Your objection is beside the point, and I can assure you, they object almost as strenuously to your beliefs.

They object to my Orthodox faith? to Christianity? That is my belief and there is no room for witchcraft.

But you are passing unsubstantiated rumors. Here are some actual federal statistics which could enlighten you,

Nice and neat stats.

I was referring to some scary info a friend of mine told me, which was revealed to him by a NY policeman. Around this time, they get the highest report of missing children than in the rest of the year. And they find left over ritual sites in the park, the last few days of Oct. than any other month. His officer friend even found inner body parts like small hearts and blood on the sites. And his officer friend wasn't just telling him about what he found, but what other fellow officers found. There was more than one officer who reported these findings.

and which you should read instead of panic-mongering preachers.

I don't know who you are referring to here.

I'm also getting a little tired, Joasia, of having to rub your face in the research you ought to be doing before you pass these rumors along.

Sounds more like your enjoying it...and it sounds like you have a lot of hostile feelings. Sounds even, like you want to pinpoint me as your target. Did you have a bad day and want a punching bag and lo and behold, Joasia is there?

Quite frankly, I am hurt by your last comment. But, I must look like a complete moron to you. So be it.

As for researching...I've reviewed many of your posts. They always come off as being arrogant and insulting. You just like to argue. You appear very knowledgable, but the way you talk to others is not right. I talked that way too, but I didn't feel good about myself. Don't you have a conscience?

Even if I am wrong in some info, so be it. Correct it, but don't step on the person. We're suppose to be here to share with each other, not bash each other.

But, I guess you're laughing your head off right now. So be it. It's your burden, not mine.

[Schultz]

And his officer friend wasn't just telling him about what he found, but what other fellow officers found. There was more than one officer who reported these findings.

So, a friend of a friend of a friend told you this.

YEah, that's the way to go. The filed reports of such activities simply don't match up with your story. An examination of archives of the New York Post, which would fall over itself for such stories, simply doesn't coincide with your stories. I'm not doubting that you heard them, I'm doubting the source who told you such things. Sensationalism doesn't just occur in the newspaper.

[CGW]

Joasia, I apologize for losing my temper. It's been a very trying week and I let my exasperation get away from me.

At the same time, I feel I need to get across to you what is wrong with the way you interpret the issue of witchcraft. The message I get from your responses is that you read everything in the context of the evil conspiracy which you already are certain is out there. This has the effect of reducing almost everything you say to rationalizations of what you already believe.

For example, in the "Bewitched" discussion, you said:

Darin had a client who wanted to use the image of a witch with a wart and Samatha and her mother were appalled. So, the idea of telling the public that we shouldn't consider witches and witchcraft a negative thing was being planted back then.

Now, look at what just happened in that sentence. You knew there was an organized witchcraft out there (which, as it happens, there was, though it had no particular connection to the show) and you interpreted the "message" of the show under the assumption that the show was a product of that cult and was written to further its aims.

I'm pretty sure that you can't actually demonstrate that connection, and furthermore, there is a quite visible context which provides an explanation which is right out in the open. Sitcoms are written to hold viewer interest so that they see the commercials. In this case, the point of this joke (and I'm dead certain that there's laughter on the soundtrack at this point) isn't about witches, but about the vanity of women-- especially Endora, who is obviously fighting a losing battle to remain attractive.

I actually know (a bit distantly, to be sure) a few actual wiccans.

You know them or you don't know them? If it's distant, then it doesn't sound like they are close friends. Do they give you the intimate details about their practices behind closed doors?

What makes you think they conduct their practices behind closed doors?

I simply don't have the time to go over the length and breadth of modern wicca. Any reading of scholarly works on the subject (e.g. Ronald Hutton, but definitely not Starhawk) will show that wicca as we now know it is a modern invention who nature is rather fluid.

I think you are just passing rumors and legends.

So I'm suppose to support witchcraft?

I think you are supporting witchcraft, inadvertently. You support it because you've made yourself a mouthpiece for this hysteria; since most of what you say is implausible, you invite the opposite reaction: "maybe these people aren't so bad after all." Or worse, you give the wiccans someone to point to as example of what's wrong with the "oppressor religion".

But you are passing unsubstantiated rumors. Here are some actual federal statistics which could enlighten you,

Nice and neat stats.

I was referring to some scary info a friend of mine told me, which was revealed to him by a NY policeman. Around this time, they get the highest report of missing children than in the rest of the year.

Maybe that's true, although I expect that the genuine NYC police statistics don't actually show this. Policemen pass urban legends around too, after all.

But there are also other reasons that this phenomenon might occur, and again I'm seeing you being controlled by your faith in your conspiracy theory. September through October is also the start of the school year, and since the vast majority of abductions of young children are related to custody battles, it's not that great a leap to postulate that the change in situations as school starts provides the motive for more abductions, and that the greater separation from the household provides the means.

And they find left over ritual sites in the park, the last few days of Oct. than any other month. His officer friend even found inner body parts like small hearts and blood on the sites.

Ummm, if these were identifiable as human remains, we would be seeing the murder cases in the papers. It's not all that unlikely that they represent animal sacrifices by practitioners of voudon and other such American cults.

And his officer friend wasn't just telling him about what he found, but what other fellow officers found. There was more than one officer who reported these findings.

Those aren't "findings". They're war stories.

I'm also getting a little tired, Joasia, of having to rub your face in the research you ought to be doing before you pass these rumors along.

Sounds more like your enjoying it...and it sounds like you have a lot of hostile feelings.

I don't enjoy it. I do it because I like to think that I can encourage you to seek out the truth about these things through some simple internet research rather than just credulously accepting stories that fit into the paranoia you express about witchcraft. There's very little I can say to you about Orthodoxy; but there's a lot I can say to you and to other people here about garden variety truth. You aren't the only offender in the unfortunately common internet forum sin of investing yourself in stories that cannot withstand ordinary intellectual criticism. After all, before this I spent my time hammering other people on the World Jewish Conspiracy. I doubt that you are a moron, but the history of these discussions demonstrates that you are not exercising your powers of judgement effectively.

And as far as my tone is concerned: I too look back at my old posts, reviewing them for tone and for arguments made. I know I often come off fairly poorly; at the same time, our criticism of our opponents is tainted by the sin of having to win. Likewise, their criticism of ourselves leads us to vest ourselves in a righteousness which we do not possess. your "do you have a conscience?" remark is utterly out of line, not to mention hugely self-righteous. I only want to persuade you that you need to change your attitude towards the kind of stories and claims that you pass along from others. Whether or not my tone in bringing my criticisms forward merits correction, you still need to subject these stories to what really is basic intellectual criticism. This isn't a matter of intellectual ability, but rather, simply the will to do it.

[ania]

Where (and when) I grew up, Wicca was very popular amoung people in my age-group. I had several friends (meaning, people who hung out in the same loose group that I hung out with, you know, Preppies, Jocks, Geeks, and last of all where we fit in, Freaks) in highschool who were into all that stuff. They were all about "Mother Earth" and that kinda junk. I hung out with them on a semi-regular basis, and they were (with the exception of one girl cheating on her boyfriend) honest, decent citizens. Whether since then, they've gotten into blood sacrifices, etc, I wouldn't know, as I haven't seen most of them in 2 or 3 years (since I moved away).
I sometimes felt uneasy about their yin-yang phylosophies, Mother Earth this, Spirt of Such & Such that, but I never felt that they were violent secretive people.
However unfortunate it is that they are in a pagan religion, it is their consitiutional right to practice, as long as it harms no one.
There are evil satanic cults, and they are frightening, horrible, despicable. All we can do is pray for them.

As for my plans for Halloween... well, probably none, as we're moving this weekend, and I'll be to busy to worry about ghosts & gobblins.

Make a sign of the cross if you feel threatened, and say Hristos Voskrese.

[Natasha]

Now the theme song to Bewitched is stuck in my head, thanks