Father Arseny, an Invented Literary Figure?

Chapter discussions and book or film reviews of Orthodox Christian and secular books that you have read and found helpful. All Forum Rules apply.
User avatar
Seraphim Reeves
Member
Posts: 493
Joined: Sun 27 October 2002 2:10 pm
Location: Canada

Post by Seraphim Reeves »

The subject of miracles has been gone over by many philosophers, recent and ancient. I tend to side with that strain of philosophy which strictly speaking denies there is such a thing as "natural law", in the sense that there are autonomous "laws" somehow floating around in a more subtle reality than the one we regularly experience and which must be coarsly "violated" in order for the "miraculous" to occur. Rather, I believe God sustains the universe (which would collapse into utter nothingness were He to withdraw His will for it's continued existance), and in doing so "orders"/administers it in a typically predictable way. With that said, if He chooses to do something out of the ordinary, it is no more amazing for Him to do such, no more "difficult" for Him to do such, than it is to keep it all chugging along in the fashion we ordinarily experience things. IOW, it is no more difficult or violent for God to raise the dead, instananeously remove disease, or fold the universe up like a garment, than it is for Him to cause the sun to rise or your kid's basketball to bounce according to ordinarily predictable principles.

I guess this view would be called a denial of causality. The "common sense" of men, and the natural sciences, imho are tenuous - for the simple reason that their rational is ultimatly based on what is typical, not what is absolutely possible/impossible (which strictly speaking, is anything and everything.) This is why, while I can see it's utility, ultimatly logic/reason are limited, and are (when all is said and done) "inductive" to some degree. Uniformism (particularly in science) is based on an assumption - the assumption being that because party-x has never observed a case of something, that their collective general observations betray a "law" or absolute rule.

IOW, I see no credible reason to deny outright the "miraculous", even if one does not already accept the totality of the Christian revelation.

Seraphim

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Seraphim,

Although I don't normally philosophize, I would like to comment here.

seraphim reeves wrote: wrote:

I believe God sustains the universe (which would collapse into utter nothingness were He to withdraw His will for it's continued existence), and in doing so "orders"/administers it in a typically predictable way.With that said, if He chooses to do something out of the ordinary, it is no more amazing for Him to do such, no more "difficult" for Him to do such, than it is to keep it all chugging along in the fashion we ordinarily experience things. IOW, it is no more difficult or violent for God to raise the dead, instananeously remove disease, or fold the universe up like a garment, than it is for Him to cause the sun to rise or your kid's basketball to bounce according to ordinarily predictable principles.

Initially I found this to be an attractive idea, but after some reflection I have to disagree, or at least make an amendment.

I don't believe we can say that Christ "orders" or administers His creation, it might be better left alone or said that He sustains it. Clearly the demons have been given power over His creation and also exist in and act on it. Their power is of course allowed by God and is strengthened or weakened by our own sins. We having free will as the demons, also have power over His creation.

I think it better to say that God allows "natural law", whatever that means to you, to be susceptible primarily by His creatures; He would not therefore have His hands on the "steering wheel" of His creation so much like you seem to say, but allows it to be corrupted, spiritually and "supernaturally" (if that is in any way different).

Where you seem to go wrong is by associating miracles with the kind of power it takes to create and sustain the universe. Clearly the demons have the power of the former and not the latter, I therefore think it is an important distinction.

Perhaps I am just reading you wrong.

To Anastasios' point then, this is why miracles are often suspect and certainly not treated as revelation, except when it confirms what has already been given to us. This is also said of philosophy.

User avatar
Грешник
Sr Member
Posts: 655
Joined: Tue 30 September 2003 11:20 am

Father Arseny: Fact or Fiction?

Post by Грешник »

QUESTION: I am almost at the end of Father Arseny - Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father and here is my question, do people here believe after reading the book that Father Arseny was a real person? Does anyone have any other information on his life? I had heard from a trusted friend that after his return to civilization after being released from the camps that he became a catacomb priest serving (and dying) in the Catacomb Church. Has anyone ever found any of his writings that are referenced in these books? This book gives me so much strngth this Lenten season because of the love that Father Arseny shows to everyone and his strength in Christ and the Theotokos. Any thoughts are welcome, even those of you who feel it is "religious fiction."

User avatar
TomS
Protoposter
Posts: 1010
Joined: Wed 4 June 2003 8:26 pm
Location: Maryland

Re: Father Arseny: Fact or Fiction?

Post by TomS »

Juvenaly wrote:

This book gives me so much strngth this Lenten season because of the love that Father Arseny shows to everyone and his strength in Christ and the Theotokos. Any thoughts are welcome, even those of you who feel it is "religious fiction."

Then it does not really matter whether it is 100% truthful or not. The story has served its purpose.

----------------------------------------------------
They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."

AndyHolland
Member
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue 1 November 2005 5:43 pm

Post by AndyHolland »

Fact from everything I have seen, including:

http://www.roca.org/oa/36/36f.htm

andy holland
sinner

User avatar
尼古拉前执事
Archon
Posts: 5118
Joined: Thu 24 October 2002 7:01 pm
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Non-Phylitist
Location: Euless, TX, United States of America
Contact:

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Image
Yes, if you ever go to Russia, the Catacombniks can show you his grave and you can meet some of his spiritual children whose testimonies wrote the 2 books.

User avatar
DavidHawthorne
Member
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon 25 July 2005 1:40 pm
Location: Dallas, Tx.

Fr. Arseny

Post by DavidHawthorne »

Have you heard anything that made you doubt whether he was a real person? My wife was a member of Metropolitan Valentine's jurisdiction in Moscow and her parish priest considered Fr. Arseny "made up" but both she and I have been blessed by the book you spoke of. I am sure that there are holy clergy like him in all of the various Orthodox jurisdictions regardless of how far off the jurisdiction itself may have gotten........Tom is partly right- even if it were what modernist scholars would call a "pious fiction" I find nothing in it not to emulate wholeheartedly. It is simply an echo of the lives of all the saints' lives. For myself, my gut feeling is that he was a real person and there were many like him who ended their lives both within and outside the Patriarchate......

In Christ,
Rd. David

Post Reply