Official Statement Re: Orthodox Christian/Jewish Relations

DIscussion and News concerning Orthodox Churches in communion with those who have fallen into the heresies of Ecumenism, Renovationism, Sergianism, and Modernism, or those Traditional Orthodox Churches who are now involved with Name-Worshiping, or vagante jurisdictions. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


User avatar
George Australia
Sr Member
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat 17 January 2004 9:26 am
Location: Down Under (Australia, not Hades)

Post by George Australia »

LIUDMILLA wrote:

They also make me realize that Evil will win, if only because we fight hate with hate, evil with evil and wrong with wrong...... really don't think that this is what God had in mind, while this is exactly what evil does want.....

Dear in Christ, Milla,
You are right, hatred and evil are not what God has in Mind for the cosmos.
But you are wrong in that evil will not win.
Evil, by it's nature, lacks true existence, that is why it makes so much noise, and must repeat and repeat, insisting on it's own delusion of existence. Evil is boring and monotonous- always the same lies and the same delusions- the father of lies is not very creative.
But all true existence comes from God- He Who Is- and God has nothing to do with evil. Evil is non-existence- no matter how much noise it makes.
Evil will not win, because Love is a bomb which shatters all evil. Those who Love know this, because, as the Beloved Apostle says: "Perfect Love drives out all fear."
Those who lack Love live in fear- fear of strangers, fear of others, fear of Jews, fear of Muslims, fear of Antichrist, fear of demons, fear of humility, fear of a lack of political power, fear of a loss of wealth and so on. Such fear reduces humans to the level of animals who react impulsively and on instinct. Have you seen how a dog behaves when it feels itself threatened? It barks, it bares it's teeth and tries to become as fearsome as the thing it fears. Such animal-like fear becomes so intrinsic that the individual believes that he only exists if he has something to fear and hate.
Only Love can make us see that there is nothing to fear but God.
Love is a bomb which dispells all evil around those who Love.
Never let me hear you say again that evil may win- there is no contest! :) Love will always win because God is Love.
George

User avatar
Schultz
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri 30 April 2004 4:12 pm

Post by Schultz »

Of course, according to Brendan, we should put more weight on the words of men as opposed to the canonical and universally recognized words of the Holy Spirit.

fserafim
Jr Member
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun 22 December 2002 6:53 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

Post by fserafim »

I hope I am wrong but there seems to be a flavour of Tolstoy in this thread. Of course we meet hate with love, but love is not non-resistance to evil. We must face the facts and be prepared through prayer, confession and above all by partaking of the Holy Mysteries. I serve openly as a priest, but may be the day will come when I too like the early confessors will have to go into some kind of catacomb situation. I pray that my children will grow up in the Faith and be prepared for martyrdom. Unfortunately on this forum we have from time to time, a strong pharasaical current that does breed intellectual violence. The opposite of this is a hippy-like Orthodoxy that sees everyone as 'beautiful'. What is important is to follow the Royal Path. Do I? I try, through service to our parish and by obedience to our bishop. I have a Jewish neighbour who jokes with me, asking me if I have prepared my sermon for the coming Jewish festival. I enjoy meeting and talking with him. He is a koscher baker.

Perfect love casts out fear. Let's not fear the future but let's pray for courage and discernment so that we may not lose the crown of martyrdom.

In Christ,

Fr Serafim

Hexapsalms
Jr Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu 16 September 2004 10:24 am

Post by Hexapsalms »

fseraphim--

I think you are reading most of us wrong--there's not a Tolstoy flavor going through our attempts to rebut Brendan, who apparently isn't approaching the problems he poses from a Christian perspective, but more like a John Bircher. He appears to be ignoring Christian teachings as useless against the perceived threat, and is trying to peddle his fear among us.

I think most of us can see that our civilization has come to a severe crisis point and is under a terrible threat that will not go away for generations, but it would be wrong for you to assume we're bringing a Tolstoian "non-resistance" to evil where everyone is beautiful and sinless. This is not what we are saying to Brendan.

There is a time and place and proper method for resistance--but first things first--are we all walking the Royal Way, as you say? Are we aligning ourselves with God so closely that we can be thoroughly certain that indeed "Perfect love casteth out fear." How much do you trust your God?

Trust in God does not mean that we hide from the facts because in the future the facts will get more visibly terrible, so where can anyone hide? It is true we've been asleep on many fronts, and now we have to wake up, and I hope people are taking the time to study some history and these problems carefully and weigh the evidence, not just buy someone's spin whether it's coming from the left or right wing media. But after having done that, it's how we approach unpleasant facts that's important. How many of us can truly say Perfect love casts out fear and believe it? It's obvious Brendan is obsessed with the fear. How does our fears manifest themselves in regard to the problems Brendan poses?

Only by focusing on Perfect Love can we "resist" in the proper way--not from fear and sorrow on witnessing the world come undone through its accumulating lies and sins--but to hold fast to the things of God which has been and will certainly be under all kinds of fierce assaults from many groups--but especially from the prince of darkness who is spreading fear and despair and the spirit of anti-Christ in many guises throughout the world. When we can get the vision of Perfect Love, then we'll know when, where and how to resist the devil's works and our resistance will be strengthened and made effective by His power, not our own.

brendan

Post by brendan »

Hexapsalms wrote:

fseraphim--

I think you are reading most of us wrong--there's not a Tolstoy flavor going through our attempts to rebut Brendan, who apparently isn't approaching the problems he poses from a Christian perspective, but more like a John Bircher. He appears to be ignoring Christian teachings as useless against the perceived threat, and is trying to peddle his fear among us.

No, peddling fear is not my goal, but rather raising awareness and prompting discussion on important issues. Unfortunately, there seems to be an either-or attitude expressed by some people. IOW, we should not take concrete action to resist dangers posed by non-Christians because our need for salvation exists. The need for salvation obviously exists no matter what the situation. Even if we faced no external threats, that would remain. That is a given condition that I understand. My point all along has been that our need for salvation doesn't preclude resistance in this world to threats against the Church and our human existance as Christians.

We might also keep in mind that the Church recognizes some men of action in the form of at least two warrior Saints I know of. So passivity isn't always mandated. Other Saints, such in the case of St. Sava, relied on men taking physical action to protect the Church. There are many examples in history of people reacting to a physical threat to the Faith.

The fact that so many folks apparently refuse to accept this is why the discussion has escalated.

It should also be noted that while non-resistance can be legitimately argued on a theological/philosophical basis, such reasoning is also been the refuge of the irresponsible and cowardly among us who want some justification for avoiding their duty.

Its very easy to advocate remaining passive towards, say, the Muslim threat, since the one's who will most likely suffer will be the next generation, not us. Our passivity will not cost us martyrdom, but may IMPOSE martyrdom on our children. This is like deliberately incuring huge debts you know will have to be paid by your children. I think there's something fundamentally immoral in doing that.

Hexapsalms
Jr Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu 16 September 2004 10:24 am

Post by Hexapsalms »

Brendan--

Your last post seems to be a better presentation of your case. Raising awareness no thinking person can object to--but your handling of the information and your proposed solutions in other posts left most of us feeling that we were being dragged into philetistic heresy. You must remember that Christians come in all races and nationalities and right now, it is mostly the non-white Christians who are suffering very real persecution in places like Africa, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. The white Europeans and very many white Americans have gone agnostic or atheist. Europe is rightly called "POST-Christian". Try handing out Christians tracts to white people anywhere and see how many of them throw them back in your face with a hateful comment. The non-white people, on the other hand, will politely accept them, even thank you. The white people will often say that they're so well educated and so smart that they don't need some primitive myth called God. So non-white Christians suffering persecution should be HONORED not dismissed because they are non-white. Come at these issues more thoughtfully and maybe you can have that discussion you want.

That aside, passivity is not what we've been advocating. Certainly I don't advocate it. Resistance is evil is necessary. We are to be salt and light to the world. The question is how can we do this in the best way. Passivity, too, has been used to great political success by Gandhi and ML King, so don't discount its power. But what I must stress is that worldly politics will not have the last word, even if every Christian is martyred. If we believe at heart that worldly politics does have the last word, then we are truly a sorry lot, because the devil and all his minions are working overtime to defeat us on every front. Our weapons are of the spirit and these they can't use against us unless we give them up to them. (The helmet of salvation, the breastplate of righteousness, the sword of truth...) Either you believe in the efficacy of these weapons or you do not, and that's what separates Christians from non-Christians.

In the past too many Christians have approached threats half-cocked--striking out for revenge or doing something extremely obnoxious that shows how fearful we are, how lacking in trust of God. This has often done nothing more than bring disgrace upon Christianity and make the world as more hostile to all religions everywhere, and especially to Christianity, as spreaders of violence and chaos. The most common charge laid before the door of Christians is how often we've taken the secular way out, that we're no better than the agnostics and atheists who try to impose their will with subterfuge or violence, that we are just as fearful and cringing as everyone else.

I do care what happens to future generations. I would not like to see my pretty little niece forced to wear a burqa and made to be ashamed to be female or my happy-go-lucky little nephew made into a zombie suicide bomber. I would not like either of them to be prevented from reading the Bible by overzealous secularists, or kept from going to church by anyone. I don't think anyone on this forum wants to see their young loved ones grow up in a land that even remotely resembles Afghanistan under the Taliban. So be careful about assuming that we are indifferent to the future.

brendan

Post by brendan »

Hexapsalms wrote:

Brendan--

Your last post seems to be a better presentation of your case. Raising awareness no thinking person can object to--but your handling of the information and your proposed solutions in other posts left most of us feeling that we were being dragged into philetistic heresy. You must remember that Christians come in all races and nationalities and right now, it is mostly the non-white Christians who are suffering very real persecution in places like Africa, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. The white Europeans and very many white Americans have gone agnostic or atheist. Europe is rightly called "POST-Christian". Try handing out Christians tracts to white people anywhere and see how many of them throw them back in your face with a hateful comment. The non-white people, on the other hand, will politely accept them, even thank you. The white people will often say that they're so well educated and so smart that they don't need some primitive myth called God. So non-white Christians suffering persecution should be HONORED not dismissed because they are non-white. Come at these issues more thoughtfully and maybe you can have that discussion you want.

There's certainly truth in what you say about whites vs. non-whites, but by accepting that as a premise for proselytization efforts, does that mean we abandon whites becausethe non-whites may seem more receptive?

Five years ago, my own heart was pretty hardened against any religious message. While I never really considered myself anti-Christian, I basically thought it was a lot of foolishness and completely anti-intellectual. But given my experiences in various fundamentalist churches, this wasn't a totally unreasonable opinion. So to reach alienated whites who have fallen away from the churches, I think we maybe have to use a different approach. We have to think about the reasons WHY so many people have reacted against established Christian churches. I happen to think Orthodoxy has that unique ability to reach people with a message that is both authentic and intellectual. When I say intellectual, I mean as opposed to some of the Protestants who take, what seems to me, a rather simple-minded attitude towards the Scriptures and theology. Orthodoxy takes notice that things are not always as simple as we humans might like and Christianity cannot really be put into a simple and decorative package ready for mass consumption.

That aside, passivity is not what we've been advocating. Certainly I don't advocate it. Resistance is evil is necessary. We are to be salt and light to the world. The question is how can we do this in the best way. Passivity, too, has been used to great political success by Gandhi and ML King, so don't discount its power.

Regardless of my personal opinion of these two men, I will point out that in both cases, they did actually put themselves on the line. This is completely different than someone who advocates passivity with full confidence that he or she will most likely never actually have to suffer the consequences of that passivity.

I do care what happens to future generations. I would not like to see my pretty little niece forced to wear a burqa and made to be ashamed to be female or my happy-go-lucky little nephew made into a zombie suicide bomber. I would not like either of them to be prevented from reading the Bible by overzealous secularists, or kept from going to church by anyone. I don't think anyone on this forum wants to see their young loved ones grow up in a land that even remotely resembles Afghanistan under the Taliban. So be careful about assuming that we are indifferent to the future.

I think God has given us plenty of examples as warnings. Constantinople hasn't been restored. Christians have almost completely been driven from the Holy Land. Of course, we're all aware of the situation in Kosovo.

Let me make it perfectly clear. I accept that we should always pray, repent, and do what God teaches. But deliberately allowing the Church to be driven to the point of annihilation or operating under great restrictions at the hands of non-Christians hardly serves any positive purpose. I think there is certainly a necessity for paying attention to what happens in this world. After all, how many of us sleep with our doors unlocked? How many of us take night walks in the dangerous areas of a city? How many of us deliberately engage in foolish and dangerous activity? How many of us do such things based on the assumption that God will keep us from harm no matter what stupid or irresponsible thing we might choose to do? You know, its one thing to trust God to keep us safe in normal circumstances, but isn't deliberately allowing a dangerous situation to come about essentially the same as daring or testing God?

I will continue to speak out and sound the alarm against those hostile to Christianity and the Orthodox Church in particular. And I am perfectly willing to answer for that on the Day of Judgement. The fact is I'd rather take the chance that I'll be be judged as acting in error as opposed to being judged for rationalizing passivity which allowed God's enemies to harm the Church. And I want to reiterate the point that it won't be us who suffer, but future generations who will have martyrdom forced on them if God's enemies gain the upperhand. BTW, I know of no one who became a Saint by making someone else his martyr by proxy.

If nothing else, we should at least know who our enemies are. We are commanded by God to be wise, aren't we? Resist evil, but if martyrdom becomes inevitable, then we will see who is up to it. In any case, I simply can't, in good conscious, knowingly facilitate the martyrdom of future generations.

Post Reply