The Donation of Constantine and the Areopogite

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
Pravoslavnik
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Climacus, the "Theologian"

Post by Pravoslavnik »

Climacus,

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   We Orthodox must have basic faith in the promise of Christ that he would establish His Church, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.  Christ God also promised the Holy Apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead them (the Church) in the way of truth.  He didn't imply that this establishment and guidance of the Church--His mystical Body--would begin in Germany in the 16th century with the theorizing of a defrocked Augustinian friar, or with the modern era philological analysis of "text critics"--mostly Protestants, and a few nominal "Orthodox"--who have not acquired the Holy Spirit, or any modicum of true sanctification through podvig and the sacramental grace of the Church.  If you have acquired sufficient sanctity to rectify the theological judgments of the Orthodox saints regarding the soundness of the writings of pseudo-Dionysios, publish them and find an iconographer to write your holy image for us to venerate.  Perhaps you will be the first new "theologian" of Orthodoxy to come along in 600 years--he who, through modern text analysis showed that there are, in fact, no "thrones or angelic dominions."  Also, to reiterate, Platonism is not extraneous to the Hagia`Sophia.  Do you find Socrates' discussion of the soul and immortality in Plato's [i]Apology [/i]so entirely inconsistent with Christ's own teachings about the human soul?  You seem to be struggling with this and many Orthodox aspects of Orthodoxy that are`quite different from the prevalent Northern European and American Protestant theories about Christianity and the Church.
Climacus
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Post by Climacus »

Dear Pravoslavnik,

I have four comments to make in reply.

First, I don't quite see the point in referring to Luther in this discussion, as I am not a Lutheran, have never mentioned him, nor does he have anything to do with what I've said. Why do you keep on bringing him up? Did you convert from Lutheranism? Is that why you are so insistent on referring to him?

In any case, I agree with you. We should not depend on the authority of any one individual, especially our own private interpretations, when deciding matters of faith. Doctrine should be settled according to the Vincentian canon, and especially by ecumenical council. That is precisely why I object to the influence of Pseudo-Dionysius - because his beliefs cannot be justified by history, council, or the Vincentian canon. They are, in fact, the private speculations of a man who overly admired Proclus and tried to marry pagan thought with Christianity, as is attested to by every authority who has studied the subject in any depth (beginning with the hints in Pomazansky).

Second, I think you misunderstand me. Not only have I not called into question the fact that the Holy Spirit leads the church into all truth such that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; I have actually presupposed that in all my arguments. That being said, questioning the authority of one alleged father of the church, especially one who is universally recognized as being a fake, is hardly an attack against the faith. Pseudo-Dionysius does not lie at the foundation of the Church, and she will not be harmed at the loss of him. Christ is the cornerstone, and the apostles are the foundation. Indeed, the Church survived without Pseudo-Dionysius for 7 centuries before some later fathers mistakenly believed his false apostolic claims and incorporated his speculations into their beliefs.

Third, I find it disingenious of you to suggest that I think of myself as some kind of holier-than-thou phony with pretentions to veneration. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I freely admit that I am a sinner who is only a Christian by the grace of God. Its unfortunate that the discussion degenarated so quickly. It seems to happen too often on these message boards. Since you are a self-professed Ivy Leaguer, I would expect you to actually engage my arguments with counter arguments of your own, rather than resort to ad hominem fallacies. Wouldn't it be better for both of us to simply discuss these issues with the view of determining the truth of the matter, rather than resort to sarcastic attacks? I don't see how it contributes to the discussion.

Fourth, and lastly, you seem to put a lot of emphasis on your a priori rejection of "modern era philological analysis of "text critics"". I assume you mean the linguistic analysis of texts. Well, I would not be so quick to reject the analysis of texts. After all, that is what the church did in establishing the canon of Scripture. I'm sure you would not consider yourself above the example of the church? But they analyzed texts, distinguishing the genuine from the fake. That is what St. Luke did in compiling his gospel (see Luke 1). And that is what all scholars (Orthodox or otherwise) continue to do today. For instance, I would highly recomend that you read the introductions to the various volumes of the 'Popular Patristics' series for examples of what I mean. In other words, carefully analyzing texts to determine their authenticity is hardly a modern phenomenon. Quite the opposite, it is very pre-modern. In fact, it is the practice of the ancient church and a matter of common sense - as someone with your education would surely recognize.

Sincerely,
Climacus

PS: I greatly admire Socrates and, by extension, both Plato and Aristotle. But I do not accept everything they say simply because they are famous. Their thought is a mixture of truth and error. Some Platonic beliefs are true, but not all. I know this because I can compare their thoughts to the teachings of Christ which is pure truth. Don't you do the same? And isn't that precisely what the Cappadocians did when they used Platonic and Aristotelian concepts in their theological formulations? Unfortunately, some later church fathers did not have that opportunity when reading Pseudo-Dionysius. They erred on the side of trust. An error I hope will be rectified in the church, just as surely as any non-Orthodox way of thinking should be rectified in the church.

Pravoslavnik
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Post by Pravoslavnik »

Climacus,

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 You misunderstood the point of my ad hominem comments.  It is one thing for St. Luke the Evangelist, or the Fathers of the Church, to judge and incorporate the revelations of scripture into the Biblical or Church canons.  It is another thing for you or I to presume to do so, on the basis of contemporary, "scientific" (philological) theorizing.  Do you imagine that the deliberations and decisions of the Church Fathers were not guided by the Holy Spirit, as the various Protestants--beginning with Luther--insist was the case "[i]sola scriptura[/i]"?  Put differently, do we find the revealed truths of Christianity primarily in the formally canonized scripture of "the Bible," or in the collective, partly Platonic and even "pagan," wisdom of the Orthodox Church tradition--the liturgical texts, kontakia, hagiography, canons, and Bible?  For example, can you find anything in the "Bible" about something as central to Orthodox praxis as making the sign of the cross, or saying the 'Jesus prayer''?
Climacus
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Post by Climacus »

Pravoslavnik,

Am I trying to change "Biblical or Church canons"? No. I am simply questioning the unique problems presented by the works of Pseudo-Dionysius.

Is carefully reading texts presumptious? No, it is common sense and the practice of the church of all ages. And yes, it is even the practice of common mortals as seen by St. Vladimir's Seminary Press' 'Popular Patristics' series, each volume of which begins with an introduction and includes footnotes to help explain why certain textual recensions are more reliable than others.

Am I challenging the inspiration of the fathers? No. Their reliability and inspiration, after all, is not invested in any one individual person. Rather, they become authoritative in consensus. This is our main contention against Rome, after all. In other words, the church does not rise or fall just because it has been shown that Dionysius lied about his identity.

Where do we primarily find the revealed truths of Christianity? I've already answered that several times. Like you, I reject sola scriptura, and accept the authority of Scripture and Tradition. But, I might add, scripture has the primacy, at least according to St. Basil. As he wrote concerning the doctrine of God in his work 'On the Holy Spirit': "But we are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of Scripture, beginning with the evidence which I have extracted from the Scriptures and presented to you" (ch. 7). I presume that you would not question the wisdom of Basil, would you?

It is precisely for these reasons that I question the use of Pseudo-Dionysius in determining our theology: because (a) his work has been historically proven spurious, and (b) because at least some of his thought does not agree with either Scripture or Tradition, but fits perfectly with Proclus' paganism.

Pravoslavnik
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Post by Pravoslavnik »

color=red his work has been historically proven spurious, and (b) because at least some of his thought does not agree with either Scripture or Tradition..[/color]

Climacus,

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  Can you give a few examples of the theological concepts of "Dionysius" that have been "proven spurious," and the "historical proofs" to which you refer?  Also, can you explain how these apparently "spurious" concepts do not agree with our Orthodox "traditions" which St. Basil so clearly valued, along with the canonized scriptures so highly prized by our Protestant brethren?  I would like some specific concepts, partly so that I can examine your "historical proofs" in relation to the traditional use of the writings and concepts of "Dionysius" in the Orthodox divine services.
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