Yet Another Western Rite Argument

[Hieromonk Enoch]

Icxyprion/Symeon,

You are correct. However, it would be my suggestion not to argue with another person in your jurisdiction about a person outside your jurisdiction, over a subject matter that is not practiced in your jurisdiction. It would be better for my person to just let charges stand on an internet forum, than cause a rupture between two members of the same Church.

In Christ,

Fr. Enoch

[Matthew]

Thank you Fr. Enoch for clearing that up. But what you have said is what I said too, that you did NOT concede to his position as being true or correct in the full sense, but that you simply did not want to continue debating the issue.

[Matthew]

Thank you, Father Enoch. You are entirely correct. Forgive me all of you, espcially Revnitel, if I caused you any ill feelings because of my being obdurate to any degree. I will drop the matter here.

Please pray for me a sinner.
Symeon

[Revnitel]

Father Enoch did not concede to your argument. You do not know what the latin means.

Nolo contendere is a legal term that comes from the Latin for "I do not wish to contend." It is also referred to as a plea of no contest. In criminal trials in certain U.S. jurisdictions, it is a plea where the defendant neither admits nor disputes a charge, serving as an alternative to a pleading of guilty or not guilty. A no-contest plea, while not technically a guilty plea, has the same immediate effect as a guilty plea, and is often offered as a part of a plea bargain.[1] In many jurisdictions a plea of nolo contendere is not a right, and carries various restrictions on its use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolo_contendere

He indicates simply that he no longer wishes to discuss the matter with you, and I have said this is because of your aggressive manner, and inability to show appreciation for other people's ideas. Rather, than wrongly accusing and consigning someone to the fires of "renovationism" etc, you should try to see that not everything is as you imagine it to be.

It amuses me that you you who equate the confession of the Sergianists (collaborators with the murderers of the Catacomb confessors) with the confession of the Russian New-Martyrs, also make a charge against someone for not being Traditional or True Orthodox but rather a Renovationist simply because it was pointed out that you that you are trying to force a false conclusion down your brother's throat.

Finally, your entire tone and manner of discourse is not that of brother with brother. But rather your manner of going about things is only what I witness New Calendarist Orthodox do when a TOC believer says very traditional things about ecumenism or prayer with heretics on SCOBA or World orthodox Forums. The tone is definitely that you are trying to pick a fight with your TOC brothers and sisters here. You have no gentleness with the people you should love and show concern for. Rather I feel like you are using your SUV of words to run us all, in our little vehicles, into a ditch unless we capitulate on every point that you make. You have completely ignored and not acknowledged even one of the numerous times I agreed with things you have said and sought only to balance that with some points you made that I agreed with but felt were put in terms too absolute to be truly correct since they did not take all the complexities that exist into full account.

I think you ought to show a more guarded and appreciative tone in the manner of your dealings with your brothers and sisters on this site--even if you do have a PhD from some college somewhere and have venerable grey-hair, which is indeed to be accorded respect. Please do not be so quick to judge us as heretics and renovationists. You are dealing with simple layfolk for the most part who have no formal training in these areas, which is why I have repeatedly stated to you that the subjects we are discussing together are really beyond, at least, my competence and really ought only to be decided by those who have been graced with the Episcopal rank. For this reason alone (I suppose you have never received the grace of Episcopal ordination since you have thus far not claimed such), you ought to come down from your verbally high position and sit with us at a common table and share the light God has given you with us in a more conciliar fashion. We would all be much more amenable to what you have to say if you were to be more gentle with us. Telling us your Orthodox name would be a nice beginning, as all of us have been forthcoming in the manner of friends, brothers, and sisters, in telling you ours.

God bless you,
Symeon

When one pleads "no contest", one accepts the charges and argument laid and allows it to stand. Nolo contendere, means "I WILL NOT CONTEST OR ARGUE" what has been presented and accept it as it stands in Latin. Thank you very much.

Now for you to lecture anyone about Sergianists, Renovationists or any like minded ilk would mean you would have to stop using their line of argumentation and logic firstly. That isn't the case here where you bring in extemporaneous material of what you thought I have written on other topics because you can't defend liturgical renovatonism and innovation, things which are definitely characteristic of NC and modernists and Renovationist heretics. The WR has no basis in the Tradition, for it does not emerge out of it. It is a dead shoot. Thus, to argue for its inclusion is to argue the deficiency of living Orthodox liturgics to introduce a liturgical innovation which oftentimes is loaded with heretical practices and God knows what, Renovationism. That has no place anywhere in Orthodoxy and such an attitude is patently unOrthodox, heretical. Only pseudodox reasoning allows for it. I prefer Orthodoxy, authentic Orthodoxy.

I have substantiated my claims and that substantiation is what is the topic here. Not my person. No, it does not follow that you insult people when you lose an argument to avoid admitting you lost. The very fact you engage in personal invective shows you should not have been engaged in the discussion to begin wtih. You shouldn't have. These personal attacks when you can't win an argument. Surely you are not this immature. I never argue for the validity of Sergianist confessions of faith and all the other rot you seem to attack me with. I am offended that you continue this. I argued that politics was and is not a barometer of True Orthodoxy and that people who engage in it, especially on Christmas Eve, act not in Christ, but act of the devil and their hatred and bile bears that out. I went one further and said that Sergianists, Commemorators and non political believers earned the Martyrs crowns as New Martyrs. Even the Saints canonized by ROCOR bear this point out. So this is tiresome. I do not accept your apology, no longer welcome your opinion, and frankly find your ad hominem attacks over the top, poorly reasoned and inauthentic. If you have nothing to say, please don't think you need to share it with elan. Do not substitute argument for substance any longer or personal straw man ad hominem attacks for discussion. You really don't need to insult me or anyone if you disagree. You can just disagree and state you have another opinion. No one compels you to hatred except yourself. Nor is such an attitude anything to be smugly satisfied with. It is just pathetic.

The WR is as heretical a movement as modernism and as such has no place in the Orthodox Church, for living Orthodox worship suffices to save Orthodox believers, and that line is written by a former papist, me. Thank you. May God grant you a direction.

[Lydia]

Father Enoch did not concede to your argument. You do not know what the latin means.

Nolo contendere is a legal term that comes from the Latin for "I do not wish to contend." It is also referred to as a plea of no contest. In criminal trials in certain U.S. jurisdictions, it is a plea where the defendant neither admits nor disputes a charge, serving as an alternative to a pleading of guilty or not guilty. A no-contest plea, while not technically a guilty plea, has the same immediate effect as a guilty plea, and is often offered as a part of a plea bargain.[1] In many jurisdictions a plea of nolo contendere is not a right, and carries various restrictions on its use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolo_contendere

He indicates simply that he no longer wishes to discuss the matter with you, and I have said this is because of your aggressive manner, and inability to show appreciation for other people's ideas. Rather, than wrongly accusing and consigning someone to the fires of "renovationism" etc, you should try to see that not everything is as you imagine it to be.

It amuses me that you you who equate the confession of the Sergianists (collaborators with the murderers of the Catacomb confessors) with the confession of the Russian New-Martyrs, also make a charge against someone for not being Traditional or True Orthodox but rather a Renovationist simply because it was pointed out that you that you are trying to force a false conclusion down your brother's throat.

Finally, your entire tone and manner of discourse is not that of brother with brother. But rather your manner of going about things is only what I witness New Calendarist Orthodox do when a TOC believer says very traditional things about ecumenism or prayer with heretics on SCOBA or World orthodox Forums. The tone is definitely that you are trying to pick a fight with your TOC brothers and sisters here. You have no gentleness with the people you should love and show concern for. Rather I feel like you are using your SUV of words to run us all, in our little vehicles, into a ditch unless we capitulate on every point that you make. You have completely ignored and not acknowledged even one of the numerous times I agreed with things you have said and sought only to balance that with some points you made that I agreed with but felt were put in terms too absolute to be truly correct since they did not take all the complexities that exist into full account.

I think you ought to show a more guarded and appreciative tone in the manner of your dealings with your brothers and sisters on this site--even if you do have a PhD from some college somewhere and have venerable grey-hair, which is indeed to be accorded respect. Please do not be so quick to judge us as heretics and renovationists. You are dealing with simple layfolk for the most part who have no formal training in these areas, which is why I have repeatedly stated to you that the subjects we are discussing together are really beyond, at least, my competence and really ought only to be decided by those who have been graced with the Episcopal rank. For this reason alone (I suppose you have never received the grace of Episcopal ordination since you have thus far not claimed such), you ought to come down from your verbally high position and sit with us at a common table and share the light God has given you with us in a more conciliar fashion. We would all be much more amenable to what you have to say if you were to be more gentle with us. Telling us your Orthodox name would be a nice beginning, as all of us have been forthcoming in the manner of friends, brothers, and sisters, in telling you ours.

God bless you,
Symeon

Amen, Symeon. Very well said, in a loving, traditional, Orthodox spirit.
I believe it is we, who are the venerable grey-haired ones. Revnitel sounds like recent convert, full of admirable zeal and ardour for the faith, but still very much an youngster. He will learn.

[StephenS]

Bearing in mind St John of Shanghai said that there was what the Church teaches and anything else is personal opinion I shall put my tuppence worth in.

Orthodoxy is a living Tradition and how we worship is part of that Tradition. With the falling away of the West those 'rites' of theirs became lost to Orthodoxy. Quite how such a 'rite' can be lived again within Orthodoxy - coming after 1,000 years, appears to me an impossibility. Orthodoxy is not simply sets of worship texts and rubrics but a whole and complex living Tradition. Neither does it seem either practical nor desirable as an outreach to those outside Orthodoxy who surely need embracing into a living Tradition while learning not to cling to the habits and customs of their past confession, I.e. developing an Orthodox mindset.

In writing this I do not wish to offend or contest, having no sense that my opinion is superior to anyone else's, but simply to explore the issue of what place, if any, have either archaic or recent Western 'rite' styles in Orthodoxy.

[Suaidan]

Bearing in mind St John of Shanghai said that there was what the Church teaches and anything else is personal opinion I shall put my tuppence worth in.

Orthodoxy is a living Tradition and how we worship is part of that Tradition. With the falling away of the West those 'rites' of theirs became lost to Orthodoxy. Quite how such a 'rite' can be lived again within Orthodoxy - coming after 1,000 years, appears to me an impossibility. Orthodoxy is not simply sets of worship texts and rubrics but a whole and complex living Tradition. Neither does it seem either practical nor desirable as an outreach to those outside Orthodoxy who surely need embracing into a living Tradition while learning not to cling to the habits and customs of their past confession, I.e. developing an Orthodox mindset.

In writing this I do not wish to offend or contest, having no sense that my opinion is superior to anyone else's, but simply to explore the issue of what place, if any, have either archaic or recent Western 'rite' styles in Orthodoxy.

What's truly impressive is that this argument was issued with a quote from St John of Shanghai, who used the Western rite publicly and repeatedly.