the joys of ecumenism

[liefern]

Hello everyone. I have a persistent thought. What if ecumenism is necessary? There are so many tens of millions of Christians who are almost entirely in agreement, most of whom are really just missing something. In fact I was quite surprised: I recently spent a Sunday at a Methodist church, and to be honest, I really didn't hear any heresies. It was more a question of what is missing. (A lot). Now, I can find ways to object. For example, they emphasized 'works' to the point that one could accuse them of chiliasm, trying to make heaven on earth. But in reality, they just want to be Christ to more people. And so do we all.

Despite the differences, the various groups get (i.e. understand) a lot of Christianity. I'd wager that this applies to the millions of non-Chalcedonians.

How do we know that exaggerating and focusing on the differences is truly the right thing to do? What if the right thing to do is to keep feelers out, and try to encourage people to come together? If any thought of trying to do that is met with withdrawal, and if that 'walling off' is correct, then the result is that the Church will be tinier and tinier and tinier, and how can that be correct? Especially when you interact with people and see that they are not so very far wrong? Any thoughts?

[Barbara]

"Not so very far wrong" - ? That statement needs to be looked at under a microscope, like a fern, liefern !
I think we could write volumes to dispute THAT !

You will see as you progress that the chasm is gigantic, not narrow, between True Orthodox and ... methodists.

I recommend you stay away from their services. I wouldn't be surprised whether the devil doesn't have some kind of
trance state set up for people who are uncertain, like you, in order to lure them into accepting Protestants of that particular stripe. And to admire them. Somehow there must be some hypnosis going on in their places of meeting.

Not to mention that many of these "pastors" are there for the ego, and some are even frauds.

I recommend you to avoid their snares, set up for souls who haven't arrived at firm conclusions.

As one of Maria's visual prayers says, quoting a Pope of the 600s : ~ "Praying with a heretic means you ARE a heretic".

Having a firm stance like that already clearly in mind will act as a shield to protect you from the deceptive front provided
by these groups.

I would say, don't go farther away from True Orthodoxy than the most anti-ecumenical of WO jurisdictions. Then compare THOSE for a constructive exercise. Not True Orthodox with methodists, who are as if from another planet !

[searn77]

Hello everyone. I have a persistent thought. What if ecumenism is necessary? There are so many tens of millions of Christians who are almost entirely in agreement, most of whom are really just missing something. In fact I was quite surprised: I recently spent a Sunday at a Methodist church, and to be honest, I really didn't hear any heresies. It was more a question of what is missing. (A lot). Now, I can find ways to object. For example, they emphasized 'works' to the point that one could accuse them of chiliasm, trying to make heaven on earth. But in reality, they just want to be Christ to more people. And so do we all.

Despite the differences, the various groups get (i.e. understand) a lot of Christianity. I'd wager that this applies to the millions of non-Chalcedonians.

How do we know that exaggerating and focusing on the differences is truly the right thing to do? What if the right thing to do is to keep feelers out, and try to encourage people to come together? If any thought of trying to do that is met with withdrawal, and if that 'walling off' is correct, then the result is that the Church will be tinier and tinier and tinier, and how can that be correct? Especially when you interact with people and see that they are not so very far wrong? Any thoughts?

I don't think we should focus on the differences between our Church and other denominations, but we also can't ignore them either. "Exaggerating and focusing on the differences" isn't the right focus to have. We should be concerned that these people are not part of God's Church and, therefore, cannot experience and unite with God as He has set forth. If we go into a conversation just talking about differences and what separates us, this can be off-putting to them and they be turned off from joining the Church. But then again, if we completely ignore and brush over our differences, this will also keep people separated, as they will think that there's no reason to unite to the Church.

There's a middle-way that has to be taken in order to bring people into the Church, and our sole purpose should be for the salvation of these people.

[Dcn.Ephrem]

One of the best solutions to your question is an article by New-Martyr Hilarion (Troitsky) called "Christianity or the Church?" St. Hilarion makes the very good point that the Church is not a philosophical school of thought, but an actual organism: the Body of Christ. Membership in that body is what sanctifies us. Agreeing with the Church in principle is not enough. We must be in Christ, and Him in us; and this happens only within the Church.

In fact, the Bible says that even the demons believe, and tremble (James 2:19). One could even say that they are "Orthodox" in their beliefs. But since they are not changed by this belief, not brought into communion with Christ in His Church, they are not sanctified by that belief. It is the same with heterodox Christians. We will find much to agree on, but at the end of the day, they are outside of Christ's Body.

Find the article here: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/sthil ... hurch.aspx

[Agios_Irineos]

exaggerating and focusing on the differences

If we define ourselves as True Orthodox by this statement, we are lacking very much in the proper understanding of Orthodox Christianity.

"True Orthodox" or "Genuine Orthodox" is a label that's been created to distinguish ourselves from the world orthodox jurisdictions. However, what we are is Orthodox. Our mission is not to detail differences between world orthodox and True Orthodox. Our mission is to bring all to the Church of Jesus Christ that preserves the faith once delivered to the saints. Talking with your Protestant neighbor is not ecumenism. You don't have to condemn, belittle and become argumentative to evangelize the non-Orthodox. But at the same time, it is simply not proper to affirm the incomplete understanding of denominations which style themselves as churches. It is perhaps helpful to the ultimate conversion of their members that they have some understanding of Christian theology, but that does not equate to having any merit as institutions.

You don't have to call Protestants heretics and their pastors heretical to bring them to Orthodoxy (in fact that is almost surely an unproductive approach). However, we must present the Truth, unvarnished, as Paul did in Athens. "Some of them sneered, but others said, 'We want to hear you again on this subject.' At that, Paul left the Council. Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed." While Paul noted the religiosity of the people, he in no way affirmed the gods and idols they worshiped. He taught the Orthodox faith, and some who heard, believed. Others rejected him and chose to continue to live in darkness.

[Maria]

exaggerating and focusing on the differences

If we define ourselves as True Orthodox by this statement, we are lacking very much in the proper understanding of Orthodox Christianity.

"True Orthodox" or "Genuine Orthodox" is a label that's been created to distinguish ourselves from the world orthodox jurisdictions. However, what we are is Orthodox. Our mission is not to detail differences between world orthodox and True Orthodox. Our mission is to bring all to the Church of Jesus Christ that preserves the faith once delivered to the saints. Talking with your Protestant neighbor is not ecumenism. You don't have to condemn, belittle and become argumentative to evangelize the non-Orthodox. But at the same time, it is simply not proper to affirm the incomplete understanding of denominations which style themselves as churches. It is perhaps helpful to the ultimate conversion of their members that they have some understanding of Christian theology, but that does not equate to having any merit as institutions.

You don't have to call Protestants heretics and their pastors heretical to bring them to Orthodoxy (in fact that is almost surely an unproductive approach). However, we must present the Truth, unvarnished, as Paul did in Athens. "Some of them sneered, but others said, 'We want to hear you again on this subject.' At that, Paul left the Council. Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed." While Paul noted the religiosity of the people, he in no way affirmed the gods and idols they worshiped. He taught the Orthodox faith, and some who heard, believed. Others rejected him and chose to continue to live in darkness.

I agree.

One of the worst approaches is that taken by some who say: "I must speak the truth in love: you are worshiping with heretics because ecumenists have fallen into heresy." How is that love? Oh, yes, the Truth (Christ) will set us free, but one must be careful as there is a difference between a BOLD heretic and one who is inadvertently worshiping with heretic because he/she does not understand.

It is important to stress that while Protestants, Catholics, and World Orthodoxy can help lead people to Christ, they are not helping people to realize their full potentiality. While they might be inadvertently bottle feeding new Christians with milk substitutes laced with heresies, they are not providing real milk and chemical-free (heresy free) meat and vegetables.