Bp Auxentios GOC-K: 1-19-2015 OS - Debate

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jgress
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Re: Bp Auxentios GOC-K: 1-19-2015 OS - Debate

Post by jgress »

Lydia wrote:

Maria, you cite as a source Father Stephen Fraser. That can't be correct. He was not there when Bishop Matthew's followers begged him to consecrate a bishop alone, was he?
Father Stephen is just repeating things he has read or heard.
Are there official documents from the synod attesting to this?
Much of the official history of the Old Calendrists in Greece is merely hearsay.

But, as I wrote before, does it really matter, anymore?

Indeed. Rehashing these old polemics seems to have the main purpose of not admitting error on the part of the Matthewites, not only with respect to the original single-handed consecrations, which may have been excusable at the time, but the refusal to perform the full cheirothesia on all the Matthewite priests after the Matthewite bishops received cheirothesia from ROCOR in 1971. The Matthewites' position seems to be that the single-handed consecrations are completely regular, rather than a highly irregular action that needed to be corrected by a canonical Orthodox synod at the earliest expediency. In 1955 it wasn't apparent to the Florinite flock that the Matthewite irregularities would ever be corrected, so it was quite understandable that they wished to approach another Orthodox, canonical synod for the purposes of consecrating new bishops.

And note that this is no way an excuse for the irregularities in how Bishop Akakios was consecrated (without notifying the rest of the ROCOR synod, and one of the bishops serving on the new calendar, though he was also part of ROCOR). But it's ludicrous for the Matthewites to think that those irregularites somehow cover their own. I don't think any Florinite apologist argues that there were no irregularities in their consecrations or that the GOC did not need the synodical confirmation of their consecrations by ROCOR in 1969. But Matthewites seem to treat the 1971 cheirothesia as an economy on their part with respect to establishing communion with ROCOR and the Florinite GOC.

Now all this is separate from the question of the GOC-K incorporation of the former SiR and whether it was carried out in an Orthodox manner and whether the SiR bishops did renounce their former incorrect views on heresy and the church. I don't object to the criticisms that the Matthewite and other more zealous TOC jurisdictions put forth against the union, though ultimately I believe they are not valid objections (obviously, since I'm still in the GOC-K). But to bring up these ancient accusations as if to say "see, you guys have always been wrong" is puerile.

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Lydia
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Re: Bp Auxentios GOC-K: 1-19-2015 OS - Debate

Post by Lydia »

Maria wrote:

Lydia, do purchase and read Father Stephen's book with all the footnotes. He quotes various sources including HOCNA's research, correspondence, and news sources and periodicals of that time.

Yes, it is a complicated history.

Below is an excerpt from Fr. Stephen's book concerning the demise of the Florinites.

On November 6 [1952], out of frustration, the three Florinite Hierarchs, Met. Chrysostom of Florina, and Bishops Polycarp and Christopher, resign from their Archpastoral duties, "until a final resolution of the calendar question by a Pan-Orthodox Synod." Protests force Met. Chrysostom to immediately retract his resignation, but Polycarp and Christopher remain as simple monks within the Florinite Synod.

*1954: In February, the simple monks who were once Florinite bishops, i.e., the former Bishops Polycarp and Christopher, return to, and are received as bishops by, the new calendar State Church of Greece.

*1955: On September 8/21, Metropolitan Chrysostom of Florina, the last remaining Florinite Bishop, dies, leaving no successor-bishops for his Synod. ... The widowed Florinites seek, by every means possible, to re-establish their Hierarchy. This led to the uncanonical consecration of Akakios Papas, [who was defrocked by the GOC together with Auxentios for schism] and the establishment of the Akakian Hierarchy....(p.17, Fraser)

I read Father Stephen's book online. It is much less well sourced than you indicate.
To me, it is Matthewite polemic and has to be read as such.
I agree that it is a very complicated history, to a large extent because both the Matthewites and the Florinites were inconsitent themselves.

Father Stephen cites Karamitsos' book and his conclusion that Archbishop Chrysostomos colluded with Archbishop Spyridon to steal the monasteries at Kouvara and Keratea and then destroy the Old Calendarists. But where does he show that this was Archbishop Chrysostomos' position? Karamitsos simply makes an inference from something Archbishop Spyridon said.If this is true, why was Archbishop Chrysostomos arrested and exiled? It doesn't make sense.
In that same book, Karamitsos relates that Archbishop Chrysostomos twice went to the dying Bishop Matthew seeking reconciliation. Shall I write that again? Archbishop Chrysotomos went to Bishop Matthew, twice. Bishop Matthew recognized him and adressed him in a brotherly way, but Abbess Maryam demanded that Archbishop Chrysostomos leave. What conclusions can be drawn from this?

Father Stephen cites an encyclical of the GOC from 1988. This encyclical, written in a childish, mocking tone was reviewed by Father John Romanides. I agree with Father John's conclusion that this official GOC document basically ends up condemning the GOC itself. This is not the only time the Matthewite bishops have essntially condemned themselves. Metropolitan Kyrikos left after he concluded that a 2007 encyclical
denied the Apostolic succesion of the GOC.

From Vladimir Moss' "New Zion in Babylon":
“It was strange that Bishop Matthew should withdraw his signature from all previous decisions of the Synod… Another disturbing feature of this encyclical was the way in which it was addressed to “the former Metropolitan of Demetrias Germanus, until now president of the Sacred Synod”(later he would address him as a mere monk), as if the latter were already defrocked. Presumably he felt that the reference to “false bishops” in the 15th canon he quoted (both here and in his second “excommunication” of September 19 / October 2) was sufficient justification. And yet he nowhere demonstrates that the two metropolitans had uttered heresy. Did he mean the heresy of newcalendarism? But the metropolitans rejected it. In any case, if they were being accused of heresy, they should have been summoned to a trial. Canonical due process requires that a bishop must be tried by at least twelve bishops, that he must be summoned to present his case, and that he can be defrocked in absentia only if he has refused to appear after three summonses by two bishops. If canonical procedure could not be exactly fulfilled in such a small Synod, at any rate some reference to it was surely obligatory. And yet Matthew did not speak of a trial…The most that the two metropolitans could be accused of was inconsistency with regard to the exact status of the new calendarists. To say that they were in the same category as the new calendarists themselves, or that they had accepted communion with them, was demagogical nonsense – neither metropolitan communed with the new calendarists from 1935 until their deaths. And here Bishop Germanos adopts the same uncanonical tactic as Bishop Matthew in calling Metropolitan Germanos “the former metropolitan”, as if he had already been defrocked. Fortunately, Bishop Germanos, unlike Bishop Matthew, was to repent of his hastiness and return into communion with Metropolitan Chrysostom…”

The problem with strict interpretations is that we all condemn ourselves sooner or later. This is not the point of the canons or The Councils. The book of canons has also been called "The Rudder." What does a rudder do? It guides a ship on its course. But the rudder is not the captain. After all, to all converts who attended The Divine Liturgy and were thus converted, if the Church strictly followed the sixth canon of the Council of Laodicea, none of you would have been permitted inside the Church at that time.

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Re: Bp Auxentios GOC-K: 1-19-2015 OS - Debate

Post by Lydia »

Maria wrote:
Lydia wrote:
Maria wrote:

As St. Matthew had fallen asleep in the Lord in 1950, Met. Chrysostomos of Florina knew that his life was also drawing to a close, so it appears that he was seeking repentance, but instead of asking the GOC Synod of Bishops to be received back into the fold, Chrysostomos asked the GOC Synod to join him who had no synod of bishops, as he was alone and refused to consecrated anyone else. Asking the GOC Synod to join him was a little strange as usually the repentant one is the one begging for forgiveness and mercy. Could it be that after all the torture and starvation Chrysostomos had endured at the hands of the New Calendarists and freemasons, that he was suffering from slight dementia?

St. Matthew fell asleep in the Lord in 1950, and Met. Chrysostomos followed him a few years later in the mid 1950s. When Met. Chrysostomos died, his followers had no bishops, so the Florinians died out.

From what I have read:
[1] Archbishop Chrysostomos went to Bishop Mathew as he was dying hoping for reconciliation. Twice he went and according to eyewitnesses, Bishop Matthew embraced him as a brother, but Abbess Maryam drove Archbishop Chrysostomos away. Is this true? I don' know. So, perhaps the division is more due to the followers(and controllers?) of Bishop Matthew than by the Hierarchs themselves.

Source?

[2] Archbishop Chrysostomos supposedly told his followers to go to Bishop Matthew's synod after his death but they did not. Is this true? I don't know. There is no written record of this and since his followers obviously disobeyed him, I conclude that it is false. But, really, I don't know.

Source?

[3] It seems to me, that until the end of his life, Archbishop Chrysostomos earnestly believed that the New Calendarists could be brought back. I have read that Patriarch Athenagorus tried to entice Archbishop Chrysostomos to come over to the State Church with promises of wealth and power, but Archbishop Chrysostomos refused, instead imploring the Patriarch to repent. Is this true? I don't know.

Source?

[4] I have also read that many of Bishop Matthew's clergy and laity were truly dismayed over his decision to consecrate a bishop alone and that they left him for what they judged an uncanonical act. It seems unreasonable for them to join a synod they had recently left when the reason for their departure still existed. They also state that Bishop Germanos was alive and able to consecrate with Bishop Matthew but he refused. So, Bishop Matthew acted alone. Is this true? I don't know.

Source?

Magenta font, my emphasis.
It would help if you listed your sources.

My source: Father Stephen Fraser, Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (GOC): A Brief History and Commentary

[1] Met. Chrysostomos apparently did visit St. Matthew before he died, but Met. Chrysostomos never returned to the GOC. Thus, Met. Chrysostomos never reconciled nor repented for his schismatic action in leaving St. Matthew.

[3 and 4] It is true that Met. Chrysostomos formerly of Florina continually refused to consecrate any bishop either single-handed or in union with St. Matthew as Met. Chrysostomos had hoped that the Greek State church would repent. In addition, he considered the Old Calendarists to be a movement for a change back to the Old Calendar, and did not view the GOC as a church. For this reason, he never returned to the GOC, but asked the GOC to come with him and acknowledge the GOC as a movement, not a church.

[4] According to Rev. Father Stephen Fraser, the clergy and laity under St. Matthew repeatedly begged him to consecrate a bishop. It was not just one or two people, but an overwhelming majority of the clergy and laity of the GOC who asked St. Matthew to consecrate a bishop. Among those begging for consecration was Hieromonk Auxentios, who was terribly disappointed when the clergy-laity conference gave their vote to Bishop-elect Spyridon. Bishop Spyridon was consecrated in 1948, and Hieromonk Auxentios left St. Matthew and joined Met. Chrysostomos in 1948. However, Met. Chrysostomos steadfastly refused to consecrated Auxentios and or anyone else who approached him.

[1] Metropolitan Chrysostomos did repent in his 1950 encyclical. He took responsibility for the division. He went to Bishop Matthew twice and was chased off by Abbess Maryam.

[3 and 4] He viewed Bishop Matthew's actions in departing from the synod and single-handedly ordaining a Bishop as wrong and against Church order. I'm sure he never regarded himself as outside the Church. He sought reconciliation, not acceptance back into the Church. Are you saying he believed that he was, as an Old Calendarist, part of a movement for change, and not a Church? You say he hoped the State Church would repent. Of course, a church can't repent but the erring Bishops could. This indicates that he believed they were in need of repentance. For what? For adopting the New Menaion and persecuting those who refused to.

[4] I scanned Father Stephen book to find this passage but I couldn't. Could you give me the exact place where this is found?
Is it common practice for a clergy-laity conference to decide a Bishop's actions. Do the sheep tell the shepherd where to go? Hmmm...
Metropolitan Chrysostomos refused to consecrate Bishops for various reasons, one of which is that he knew it would make the State Church of Greece implacable. Which it did. Could you show me a statement by Archbishop Auxentios that he left Bishop Matthew because he was passed over for consecration? The fact is he, along with many clergy, laity and zealot monks of Athos, left Bishop Matthew because they believed his single-handed consecration was un-canonical and he thus deposed himself, according to the canons. If they were wrong about this, then so be it. But don't misrepresent their motives.

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Maria
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Re: Bp Auxentios GOC-K: 1-19-2015 OS - Debate

Post by Maria »

The ONLINE book found on that Serbian website is a pirated copy, which was never authorized by Father Stephen Fraser.

In order to obtain the original book in the newly edited 2013 version, you must order it directly from Fr. Stephen Fraser
He can be reached at:

Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
5814 W. Shangri La Road
Glendale, AZ 85304

His email address is: A-SAF@cox.net

He is not contesting the online book, but if you notice, it lacks the 2005 copyright page, so it is neither updated nor corrected.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Re: Bp Auxentios GOC-K: 1-19-2015 OS - Debate

Post by Maria »

St. Ambrose of Milan was acclaimed bishop-elect by a Clergy-Laity Conference after a little child recommended his election.
At that time, Ambrose was only a catechumen, so within a period of one week, he received the sacraments of Holy Baptism, Holy Chrismation, Holy Communion, and Tonsure as a Reader, and then on separate days, Ordination to the Subdiaconate, Diaconate, Priesthood, and Bishopric.

And the GOC under St. Matthew followed this ancient tradition of acclaiming a candidate worthy.

Auxentios was never acclaimed worthy neither by the Clergy-Laity conference, nor by St. Matthew and by Met. Chrysostomos of Florina. When Auxentios was finally consecrated a bishop by withholding his own defrocking by the GOC, he did not last very long before he was deposed by his own synod.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Re: Bp Auxentios GOC-K: 1-19-2015 OS - Debate

Post by Jean-Serge »

Auxentius was in fact chosen as a candidate for episcopacy by the florinite clergy and laymen, along with Akakios.

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

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Re: Bp Auxentios GOC-K: 1-19-2015 OS - Debate

Post by Maria »

Jean-Serge wrote:

Auxentius was in fact chosen as a candidate for episcopacy by the florinite clergy and laymen, along with Akakios.

However, he withheld vital information that he had been defrocked to the ROCOR bishops.

Candidates for Priesthood or Bishopric are supposed to make a confession and not withhold anything.

And Akakios was also uncanonically ordained.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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