Sexuality in the Fathers

[Logos]

Thanks for your explanation Paradosis. I find it terrible how some have sold out on contraception. I am not happy about that.

The problem is when we blow it out of proportion and start talking about some "mystical spiritual bond" as being a primary reason for having sex.

I understand what you mean now. Today, a lot of people sell sex as being this great mystical spiritual bond and in fact there are Eastern practices such as Tantra which make these claims. I have never had sexual intercourse, yet everyone talks about being this wonderful thing like a drug. That if you do not have sex, you are not a complete person.

About saints who were married and yet lived celibate, I find that to many Protestants this is a foreign idea. I once saw a Protestant minister say that he would not consider a couple married until the consummated the marriage. Of course, he used Biblical evidence to back it up. My point is, the idea of two people getting married and not having sexual relations is a foreign/exotic idea to the west. My complaint is that we(Orthodox) do not hear much about it. One has to go digging for the gems in Orthodoxy I find. I wish there was more talk on marriage as being a pathway to holiness from the church.

[Seraphim Reeves]

Perhaps when I have both the time and inclination, I should write books centered upon themes important to me. In particular, themes which revolve around pet-peeves I have with popular thought.

One of those pet-peeves, surrounds the alleged profundity of human sexual relations, in particular when such talk comes from Christians regarding sexuality within marriage.

It is a very sad statement on our current situation, when people endlessly trot out St.John Chrysostomos' teachings on married love, and automatically reduce this to a theologizing of their obsession with sex.

Speaking as a married man, who loves his wife dearly, I'm left wondering - what profundity? Certainly it can be a way of showing affection, however even on this score I do not believe it is the most noble or important way that such affection (let alone true love) is demonstrated within a marriage. Rather, I believe it is loving acceptance of the sacrifice of self (inherent to a marriage that will last) where such love is best shown - overlooking the other person's annoying habits, being liberal in forgiveness, and bearing one another's burdens as your own where this love truly shines forth.

It is precisely because these things rank last on the list of modern man (where as affection and sensuality predominate, no matter how much it gets dressed up in sentimental nonsense), that marriages do not last.

For the Fathers, marriage is holy because when lived rightly, it is a merciless school of sanctity - you will learn at least something about forgiveness, or you will be miserable. You will learn something about loving people even when they act unlovable, or you will have no peace. Obviously, when lived with the grace of the Gospel, marriage can be an incredible thing.

"Sex" does not rate at the top of importance in any of this. It exists, because we are mortal creatures, and it is how we reproduce (human reproduction being a sort of natural immortality I suppose - propelling one's genes into the future), and because we're unbalanced, married sexuality does not only exist for reproduction, but also for the comfort of the spouses (to relieve concupiscence.)

If the situation were otherwise (and this is how many of our modern academic theologians make it seem, with their neo-gnostic/occultic obsession with human sexuality being some kind profound, spiritual phenomenon), why on earth would so many married saints mutually agree to abstain from the use of their "marriage rights"? Were these couples not loving in a way many of us are totally unfamiliar with?

As of yet, my wife and I have not been blessed with a child (we have not been married for too long, so we pray this is not something that will not be permanent), nor do we believe in birth control (natural or unnatural). If God wants us to have no children, or 12 children, that will be for Him to decide. What is very sad, however, is to see Orthodox pastors condoning the use of birth-control...this to me is the sad consequence of falling away from the Patristic, so called "puritanical" view of sex and sexuality that the Fathers had. Some call it "theology of the body"...it seems to me more like an "obsession with the body", and in particular, with "sex" since by "body" what they really mean is sexual commerce.

In short, my understanding is that in Orthodoxy, married sexual relations are neither seen as sinful, nor (and this is key) as something excruciatingly beautiful of themselves. They exist, and they're for the two aims previously mentioned, keeping in mind that they are also bound up in our mortality (which is why neither pre-fall man, nor ressurected man, will marry or be given in marriage.)

Seraphim

[Logos]

In short, my understanding is that in Orthodoxy, married sexual relations are neither seen as sinful, nor (and this is key) as something excruciatingly beautiful of themselves. They exist, and they're for the two aims previously mentioned, keeping in mind that they are also bound up in our mortality (which is why neither pre-fall man, nor ressurected man, will marry or be given in marriage.)

So what you are saying is that sex is not a beautiful thing? May people would say that it is. The thing is, does not sex come from God? Here is another thing, you say that resurrected nor pre-fall man will be married or given in marriage. First, were not Adam and Eve considered married? Are they considered pre-fall man?(I know that is a stupid question here on my part) Second, then what is the purpose of having us get married here before the second coming of Christ? To multiply? To torture us? Why? Frankly, I would be happy if I never ever fell in love with some again in my life. Why does God implant attraction\falling in love in the human condition when it was something he never intended for Heaven? Is this even from God or the result of Adam and Eve screwing things up for the rest of us?

[Logos]

Question:

I am Ukrianian Orthodox and was wondering about pre marital sex in our religion?
How do we view it ? Is it ok to have sex before marriage or is it a sin?

Answer:
Thank you for your question. A good many people don't ask.

To begin with we need to look at what sin is. God has created us in His image. We are to acquire His likeness: i.e. become like Him. This is done by our working together with the grace He always gives us to think, speak and act perfectly. We are all sinners in that we fail to greater or lesser degrees in this calling. He forgives us as we come to Him asking for His pardon and help and gives us the chance to start all over and learn by our mistakes. This process is something similar to the way we learned to walk as babies: we fell many, many times, but we kept at it until we got it right. Our parents were there to help us up at times, to encourage us, to applaud us, and to console us when we hurt ourselves in our falls. God is like that only much more so, for the energy to rise up again also comes from Him. We however must make the decisions to rise up and not stay down.

Now as for sex. God has made us male and female. We complete each other by being in union with each other. This was the case with Adam and Eve. This Bible story shows us that this sort of union is to be between a single couple - two people, a male and a female. A very profound part of that union is the sexual act by which these partners "know" (Biblical word) each other most intimately. Body, soul and spirit enter into this act. God has made it so that there is a particular ecstacy in the accomplishment of it. This may be seen both as a reward and the encouragement to keep on surmounting the various obstacles one meets in uniting with another person - who is the same yet also not the same as you are.

It is probably getting clear to you where this is going. If you are thinking this means one partner in a totally committed relationship for life, you are absolutely right. That in fact is the ideal. That is the way it should be. It is often not the case. People die and people get divorced. Marriage is one of the Holy Sacraments or (prefered term) Mysteries. Out of compassion for humans and in order for them to keep on fulfilling their destiny of growth in union, re-marriages are permitted as a concession and are still Holy Mysteries. (There is also the way of monasticism where people fulfil their vocation by being dedicated to God directly instead of through/with a partner as in marriage).

People also have sex before marriage and outside of marriage. From the above you will have noted that, since this is not the perfect/proper condition for the sexual act - such actions are sin. Sin can be repented of and we can learn from our falls. But it is important that we view sin as sin - you can not repent of that which you do not consider to be sinful (although in the Orthodox Church we do ask for forgiveness of sins we have committed "knowingly and unknowingly"). And it is a mistake to do something wrong just because we know we can repent of it and learn from the sin. We should not take God and His forgiveness for granted, just as we should not take our friends and family for granted and be uncaring towards them just because we know they will forgive us. We should always try to be, to do our very best!

Popular culture: movies, television, pop songs, advertising, etc. often tells us something else. It seems to say that all sex, if it is entered into by mutual consent and gives pleasure is okay. A person who wants to abstain, to wait for true love and commitment - sealed in a Church Mystery - may be viewed as uncool. Because popular culture is so influential we may even view ourselves as being uncool or old-fashioned. Also we have our hormones and our drives - our need to be held, touched, consoled, to have pleasure - pushing at us, particularly when the word "love" is used. No, it is not an easy thing to hold out for the perfect, right way.

But it is heroic! And that is what we are called to be: HEROES! Jesus said we should be as perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. And that means that we can be! We should aim for the very highest: hitch our wagon to a star so to speak. If we fail - as we so often do - we can still keep on striving to get there. We repent, get up and keep on going.

By the way, pop culture also tells us how painful and hard the way of love can be. A great deal of this pain is a result of the heartbreak that comes from people being easy-going with the their use of the word "love" and hurrying to do things which give pleasure without the commitment and the maturity to follow-up with the lasting, sweeter pleasure of a life-long, caring, respectful, self-giving relationship. They offer their bodies but not their hearts, not their selves. How much pain could be avoided by heroic waiting!

I hope this has been helpful. Our merciful and loving God Who created us to grow to be His friends forever will help you in your search to know and become what you must become. He inspires such questions and searches for answers and gives us the strength to keep on searching and trying to follow the path He has given us to walk upon. Be patient. Be strong. True love waits.

Very Rev. Ihor Kutash kutash@unicorne.org

[Logos]

Question:

While reading through the writings of the early church fathers I find that they had an attitude that was hostile to marriage and sex inside of marriage. Many including eastern fathers were more of the opinion that sex was only for procreation purposes as was marriage in general. But while I read through modern Orthodox writings on marriage and sex, I'm taught that marriage and sex inside of marriage is a holy thing helping us to become who God intends for us to become and not just for procreation. My question is, which one should I accept? Also, could it be that the early church's troubles with Gnosticism tainted their writings making for this hostility to marriage and sex?

Answer:
Dr. Alexander Roman alex@unicorne.org

If the early Fathers gave the impression in their teachings that they were rather stoic in their attitudes toward sex, this could be as a result of the fact that they lived in a social environment that was quite sexually immoral - very much like the times we live in today!

But this is not the case, in fact.

The tradition of the Church, for example, was to recommend total sexual abstinence between married couples during fasting periods, especially the Great Fast/Lent.

Yet, there was a Church rule or canon that during Bright Week or the week following the Feast of the Resurrection, sex should not be refused one's partner. This was to ensure a balance in abstinence-discipline of sexual drive on the one hand and the fulfillment of sexual desire on the other and that was always taught by the Church.

(During one of my religion classes, I mentioned this rule of not refusing sex and one "smart alec" boy turned to the girl next to him and said, "Is this Thursday good for you?")

St Paul teaches that the marriage bed is undefiled. And there is no contradiction between the New Testament and the teachings of the Fathers. Both were also strict about controlling our sexual appetite which is a beautiful thing when used within the parameters decreed by God our Lord within the bonds of marriage.

Sexual expression is something which has MANY functions in human life, one of which is the procreation of children, of course. But it is the sexual drive that brings couples together in matrimony in the first place, their mutual love for one another and willingness to sacrifice together as they build a life on the foundation of love. Children are the result of that relationship and the "cement" that binds it together even more closely.

So it is not a matter of "who one is to believe, the Fathers or the Church's modern teaching." The Church has always taught the sanctity of the marriage bed as our Lord Himself affirmed this in His teachings and by His Presence at the Wedding at Cana of Galilee. "They shall become one flesh" our Lord said of married couples.

And in these days of sexual immorality, Christians are called to witness to God's true purpose for married sexuality and sexual expression.

[Justin Kissel]

logos

So what you are saying is that sex is not a beautiful thing?

Beautiful is a relative term, my friend. Beautiful in comparison to what? (I know there are little ones who read over the forum, so I'm going to try and be careful here). Compared to some sexual acts, marital sex is extraordinarily beautiful. To see a perversion or corruption of an act, and then to see the act as it was intended to be used, is like the difference between night and day. If the corruption is ugly sin, then the proper way may very well be called "beautiful" in its own way.

On the other hand, if we are comparing sexual relations and, let's say, prayer, then there is no comparison in the beauty. Prayer is communication with God, it is a link, a life line, that puts us in contact with He who is so wholly, wonderfully other and fantastic and amazing and incomprehensible that I have to use wordy sentences that make no sense just trying to awkwardly describe him! Compared with spiritual beauty, earthly beauty (even something as nice as sex) pales in comparison. I guess what I'm saying is, we shouldn't downplay sexuality so much as make sure it's in the proper place. If what I or what the Fathers say sounds anti-sex, please remember that the words are said in response to a specific situation or context.

The thing is, does not sex come from God?

This is a whole bundle of questions wrapped into one, really. It was perhaps allowed by God, but that doesn't make it good. Something being "natural" to fallen man does not make it a good thing. This is the mistake that homosexual activists make (and I'm not comparing you to them! ). They think that because something is "natural" (or someone is "born" a certain way), that this makes them ok. Using this logic, though, even sin and death would be something that is good, since we "naturally" (in our fallen human state) lean towards these, and in almost all cases come to experience these. God allows birth pains to be a part of our nature, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing just because God allows it. Sometimes God allows bad things for certain reasons.

Now, an Augustinian might say that sex is dirty, and allowed only because of necessity, and as a lesser evil. A follower (primarily) of Chrysostom would say that sex is healthy and pure, and it's totally natural and ok and to be expected that it is enjoyed. I think the answer is somewhere in the middle, though if I had to lean one way, it'd definatley be towards Chrysostom.

Here is another thing, you say that resurrected nor pre-fall man will be married or given in marriage. First, were not Adam and Eve considered married? Are they considered pre-fall man?

They were "married," but we don't know what that means. If I said that they were not married then I apologize my friend, I should have said that they were not sexually active, or "married" in the way that we think of marriage today (e.g., the type of "help mate" that Adam needed is far different from what we need today).

Second, then what is the purpose of having us get married here before the second coming of Christ? To multiply? To torture us? Why?

Working out your salvation is one reason, though there are other ways of working out your salvation. Sometimes you might get married because you are weak and do not think you can "go at" this life alone. I think you are confusing the two things though, my friend. You are seeing what is said about sexual relations, and then seeing it as having a direct relation to marriage. There are only a few reasons why married people should have sex, but there are a great deal more reasons why two people might get married. Marriage is a vast mystery (as Saint Paul says), sexuality is only a small part of this mysteriously wonderful reality of marriage (it is not the large part our society makes it out to be).

Frankly, I would be happy if I never ever fell in love with some again in my life.

Some are born celibate. And some can make themselves celibate for the kindom of heaven's sake. If this is your path, take it. If it isn't, though, don't even try to take it. And in all things, love (even if not in the "I wanna get married to her" type of way).

Why does God implant attraction\falling in love in the human condition when it was something he never intended for Heaven? Is this even from God or the result of Adam and Eve screwing things up for the rest of us?

Well, it came in after Adam and Eve messed up, but we cannot say they screwed things up for us. We screwed things up for us. It was not someone elses fault that humanity if fallen, this tries to push the blame onto others. When Adam and Eve fell, we fell; when they sinned, we sinned. As to why he allowed things to happen the way they happen, I'm not sure. Perhaps it is the best way to show us all the sides of things (pleasure, pain, wonders of birth, learning patience, forgiveness, generosity, self-sacrifice, and so forth as a child grows up, etc.). I think God deserves, in all things by necessity, the "benefit of the doubt". We may not be comfortable with some things here, but we have to trust that however things are, they can lead us to salvation if properly used/understood. So while things may seem difficult to us, or even wrong, and while we may sometimes be tempted to think that we could have designed life better than it has been given to us, we must learn to squash these thoughts. God wants to lead us into salvaiton, and gives us the best of all things, even when they seem to be (by earthly standards) the worst of all things.

Justin

[Logos]

God has made us male and female. We complete each other by being in union with each other. This was the case with Adam and Eve. This Bible story shows us that this sort of union is to be between a single couple - two people, a male and a female. A very profound part of that union is the sexual act by which these partners "know" (Biblical word) each other most intimately. Body, soul and spirit enter into this act. God has made it so that there is a particular ecstacy in the accomplishment of it. This may be seen both as a reward and the encouragement to keep on surmounting the various obstacles one meets in uniting with another person - who is the same yet also not the same as you are.

It says that we complete each other by being in union in each other. My question is, Christ says that at the resurrection the no one will be married or given in marriage. Why would God institute marriage here when in the coming kingdom he plans to do something different? If in marriage male/female complete each other, then what will happen to this completeness at the resurrection? Does God fill in the void?