Bishop Akakije and Metropolitan Kallinikos

[Maria]

In the Greek Orthodox Church (GOARCH), there is a Book of Needs which specifies in cases of emergency that either air (containing water vapor) or sand can be used in place of water for baptism. So, this book states that if there is no water available, a dying baby can be lifted up and submerged in the air only. Likewise, this book remarks that sand can be poured over a person's body when there is no water available. Is this correct and has it been used by the Orthodox Church?

Then this book says that if the child or person recovers that they are to be chrismated by a priest (no baptism is needed).

[Hieromonk Enoch]

I thought you were supposed to baptize the person if they were given the aero or sand baptism? Those seem to be like "let just try this just in case, because we have no water and the persons about to die, at this point, it can't hurt".

[Maria]

I thought you were supposed to baptize the person if they were given the aero or sand baptism? Those seem to be like "let just try this just in case, because we have no water and the persons about to die, at this point, it can't hurt".

That would make sense. Would this second baptism (immersion in living water) be considered to be "conditional" baptism?

[Barbara]

Back to Lydia's original question for a moment -
that's very observant of you. You will go far here !

So has this push by the GOC to defrock [! ?] Bp Akakije now lost its steam as time healed the wound a little, I hope?
Are there any updates on that ?

I hope they drop that idea.

[Maria]

Back to Lydia's original question for a moment -
that's very observant of you. You will go far here !

So has this push by the GOC to defrock [! ?] Bp Akakije now lost its steam as time healed the wound a little, I hope?
Are there any updates on that ?

I hope they drop that idea.

I am praying that the RTOC (Russians), the STOC (Serbians), and the GOC-Kallinikos (Greek) synods will be reunited in the Holy Faith. These jurisdictions can remain as separate synods, but we all should be in communion with one another. In these times, there is no reason to be divided as division hurts the faithful as less parishes are available to them. In fact, often there are two or three parishes of these different jurisdictions in the same city, but none elsewhere. Look at the Portland, Oregon area where these three jurisdictions each have a parish in Portland, but nothing in Seattle, Washington or in Corvallis or Eugene, Oregon. Likewise, look in California. San Francisco has a RTOC mission, San Diego and Bakersfield have a GOC mission, the Sacramento area has a RTOC mission, Kelseyville has a GOC Monastery, but Los Angeles has absolutely nothing even though there are at least four families in the Los Angeles area who would love to have a True Orthodox priest/bishop visit them.

Lord have mercy.

[Hieromonk Enoch]

"That would make sense. Would this second baptism (immersion in living water) be considered to be "conditional" baptism?"

I don't know. Aero-baptism and sand baptism is something, it seem, analogous to that of desire; when the emperor died on his way to be baptized by St.Ambrose, St. Ambrose gave him an Orthodox funeral even though the emperor was a catechumen; so, that's like of desire. However, that doesn't mean that if he had survived they wouldn't have baptized him in water.

But, like someone said; the original point I was making was that the whole obsession over what RTOC did in taking in three people from the MP, is no different than various documented cases, most of which, we've heard little to no anger about.

[Barbara]

Didn't want to distract from the worthy discussion about baptism, but
to answer Maria, that is a wonderfully appropriate observation. I hadn't quite noticed that geographic distribution.

It WOULD be the best for these 3 and maybe a few more jurisdictions to loosely unite so as to have a STRONG COMMON FRONT
to present to the enemy.

That's too bad about the 4 families starving for the Sacraments, etc.

Hopefully this concentration of TOC parishes in a few of the major US cities with an empty desert in between them can be remedied
by some sharp Hierarchs. Some of us laypeople may want to consider to petition them and maybe remind them to examine and
remedy the problem, since one can be SURE they are busy with many pressing topics under consideration.