Modest versus Immodest clothing. What to wear to Church?

This is a safe harbor for inquirers and catechumen to ask questions and share their journey into Holy Orthodoxy. Please be kind to our newcomers and warmly welcome them. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
Justice
Sr Member
Posts: 816
Joined: Fri 5 May 2017 4:39 pm
Faith: Deism
Jurisdiction: Possible Inquirer
Location: United States

Re: Modest versus Immodest clothing. What to wear to Church?

Post by Justice »

However, in hot desert climates, a lacy mantilla can be worn although it is not recommended as sheer fabrics (see through) are not considered appropriate. In either case, monasteries are much more strict than regular parishes.

Multiple women do this throughout the GOC. Even though you can see through it their hair is still covered. What's wrong with it? I've even seen some women wear hats into their church to substitute the veil.

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8428
Joined: Fri 11 June 2004 8:39 pm
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: Modest versus Immodest clothing. What to wear to Church?

Post by Maria »

Justice wrote:

However, in hot desert climates, a lacy mantilla can be worn although it is not recommended as sheer fabrics (see through) are not considered appropriate. In either case, monasteries are much more strict than regular parishes.

Multiple women do this throughout the GOC. Even though you can see through it their hair is still covered. What's wrong with it? I've even seen some women wear hats into their church to substitute the veil.

In the Traditional Orthodox parishes which I have visited, during the hot summer months or in desert climates, priests are more lenient and allow women, especially those going through perimenopause or in menopause and suffering from hot flashes, to wear the lacy mantillas. However, if said women would visit a monastery, even St. Anthony in Florence, Arizona, they are advised to wear a modest triangular or rectangular scarf (of nontransparent material) that ties or drapes around neck.

Hats and fancy head coverings are a western innovation. Before the 1960's, (Western) Roman Catholic nuns wore the most outlandish veils and head coverings. Such was the inspiration of the TV series, The Flying Nun.

p.s. If you have ever been around older women who are over 40 and who suffer from hot flashes, you have seen their extreme discomfort. They bring out their fans or noisily wave the paper parish bulletin to cool themselves, they remove their extra shirts, jackets, or coats, and/or they leave the church to go outside and cool off where they can also take off their sweltering head coverings. They are most uncomfortable, hot, and distracted, and they succeed in distracting all those around them too. Yes, there is hormonal replacement therapy, but these drugs are very expensive, can have side effects, and could cause cancer. If you wish to discuss hot flashes and remedies, please start another thread down in Miscellaneous Topics.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

User avatar
Barbara
Protoposter
Posts: 3983
Joined: Sat 29 September 2012 6:03 pm

Re: Modest versus Immodest clothing. What to wear to Church?

Post by Barbara »

Yes, I remember the Daughters of Mercy headdresses which were designed by St Vincent de Paul probably. He wanted healthy, hearty,
strong French peasant girls to form the backbone of this new order, he stated. Thus the style chosen was that of a French peasant girl from that era.
These have disappeared but live on in illustrations of St Catherine Laboure, the most famous Daughter of Mercy.

Let's do start a separate thread about those problems mentioned. I never had any trouble myself but from what you say, Maria, this is a common problem in Church where the cooling attempts must surely distract the parishioners. And even the clergy too.

Justice
Sr Member
Posts: 816
Joined: Fri 5 May 2017 4:39 pm
Faith: Deism
Jurisdiction: Possible Inquirer
Location: United States

Re: Modest versus Immodest clothing. What to wear to Church?

Post by Justice »

Barbara wrote:

? Jeans on men ? God forbid.

Actually, having seen so many Russian men wearing jeans with a modest sweater or jacket, I would argue that it can be modest. As long as they don't have big holes in them like Maria mentioned.

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8428
Joined: Fri 11 June 2004 8:39 pm
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: Modest versus Immodest clothing. What to wear to Church?

Post by Maria »

Justice wrote:
Barbara wrote:

? Jeans on men ? God forbid.

Actually, having seen so many Russian men wearing jeans with a modest sweater or jacket, I would argue that it can be modest. As long as they don't have big holes in them like Maria mentioned.

If men wear jeans or slacks, those jeans should not be too tight as some men have torn the seams in the crotch and/or leg areas when making a prostration. That can be extremely embarrassing.

Women also should not wear tight skirts as the seams can rip open when making a prostration or when picking up a child or item from the floor. When bowing one's head in making a metania, or when picking up an infant from the floor or from an infant carrier, long blouses are recommended to be worn because the modern shorter blouses may expose body parts.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

User avatar
Barbara
Protoposter
Posts: 3983
Joined: Sat 29 September 2012 6:03 pm

Re: Modest versus Immodest clothing. What to wear to Church?

Post by Barbara »

Justice, did you mean from looking at pictures if you meant churchgoers in the RF ? Or did you mean the men attending Russian churches here in the U.S. ?

I remain absolutely against jeans of any type, neat appearing or ripped. I think the style looks horrible. Worse, this long-lasting fad is a vestige of Communism after all. Though Levi Strauss Co started manufacturing jeans in the US and many other companies leapt to copy this shockingly popular fashion, certainly jeans represent the proletarian work outfit.

What's wrong with men going to buy a nice pair of slacks even if they don't wish to buy the suitcoat ? Doesn't have to be a Savile Row suit, after all ! Just anything that has more flair than yucky jeans. I hate seeing them on anyone, men or women, out on the streets.

So what about for God's house, the Church ?

St Vincent de Paul, Goodwill and such thrift stores most assuredly have lovely better quality slacks from nice clothesmakers.
If one is not picky about used clothing, one can find great things - hopefully even from a pre-Made In China era - which may not even have been worn but sat in a closet all the years. One only has to have good taste and patience to sort through all the cheezy pairs of trousers.

I think Priests could easily make an announcement about this after Liturgy once in awhile. Or else in private consultations, clergy could urge men parishioners to dress suitably for the presence of God and the Mother of God and All the Saints !

As a sidenote, I dislike that in general life, workmen always let their T-shirts ride way up when they lean over to dig a ditch or any such task. That looks terrible by itself. A worker should always think about such things and wear a real shirt which has tails. Not these trashy T-shirts which are too tightly fit anyway, being made from stretchy material. Not in good taste ANYWHERE, ANYTIME. Also unhealthy with all that fake fabric. A real 100% classic Brooks Brother style cotton shirt would be such an improvement !

Maria's caveats are excellent : seems like these should written up into Church bulletins and put on sites like this for Inquirers, etc. In short, spread throughout Church venues to enlighten people. Many of them, after all, probably have no clue because they are not the products of families which paid attention to these elements of more gracious living. They may well have had no model ever for this aspect of showing respect for God, for the people around one, and for oneself by dressing in a classic, tasteful style.

I was just thinking the other day, seeing middle-aged and older men wearing those horrendous baseball caps, t-shirts and shorts, that, except for a beach, my father NEVER have appeared anywhere in any attire but a full suit and tie. His suit would be a conservative color of navy blue or black and his tie ONLY in the Harvard Business School color scheme and pattern. Never any variation. The shirt would be plain white or light blue. Never any other color. Today you see even men in suits wearing garish colors of shirts. Not to mention psychadelic ties or those in loud colors or with ridiculous polka dots and other jarring patterns. These are all tasteless.

A tie should be ONLY in relatively narrow STRIPES and of only 2 colors alternating. The colors should consist of navy blue and some conservative color. Not any other pattern, nor should the stripes be excessively broad. Anything else looks tacky, like a door to door salesman.

Even doing messy work like polishing the cars or waxing the boat, my father would appear in the same exact outfit. Maybe not as good of a suit, but the same color scheme.

These are some general tips for appropriate Church wear and outside attire for men. Only a few people left will appreciate this look, but don't let that discourage you ! It broadcasts the image of a sophisticated, conservative man who is not afraid to go against all the prevailing garbage of today's appalling dress customs. Wearing such a suit and tie may help for job interviews as well.

Even if no peers appreciate this elegant, classic look, certainly God and His Saints will, especially when worn in Church !

Justice
Sr Member
Posts: 816
Joined: Fri 5 May 2017 4:39 pm
Faith: Deism
Jurisdiction: Possible Inquirer
Location: United States

Re: Modest versus Immodest clothing. What to wear to Church?

Post by Justice »

Barbara wrote:

Justice, did you mean from looking at pictures if you meant churchgoers in the RF ? Or did you mean the men attending Russian churches here in the U.S. ? !

I was just looking at various pictures from both the ROAC and Metropolitan Seraphim's synodal websites. I think both the men and women do a very good job with keeping their clothing formal.

Post Reply