Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Discuss the holy Mysteries and the liturgical life of the Church such as the Hours, Vespers, Matins/Orthros, Typica, and the Divine Liturgy. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
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maximus
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by maximus »

I think a priest needs to talk about this. I could give an answer, but I think it'd be inadequate.

“Sometimes men are tested by pleasure, sometimes by distress or by physical suffering. By means of His prescriptions the Physician of souls administers the remedy according to the cause of the passions lying hidden in the soul.”

+ St. Maximos the Confessor

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Jean-Serge
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by Jean-Serge »

Such things do not exist in the orthodox church : there is no artolatry (adoration of the bread). Practically speaking, this bread is in the sanctuary, behind the altar, a place where only priests, deaconsand those allowed enter. In the orthodox church, this communion exists only to be consumed : "Take and eat", not "Take and adorate".

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

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NadirGP
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by NadirGP »

Jean-Serge wrote:

Such things do not exist in the orthodox church : there is no artolatry (adoration of the bread). Practically speaking, this bread is in the sanctuary, behind the altar, a place where only priests, deaconsand those allowed enter. In the orthodox church, this communion exists only to be consumed : "Take and eat", not "Take and adorate".

Jean-Serge,

You wrote:

“Such things do not exist in the orthodox church: there is no artolatry (adoration of the bread).”


It is my understanding that once the bread (and wine) has been consecrated, it is not bread any more, but changed into the Body of Jesus Christ. Why then ascribing this act of veneration in front of tabernacle … as “atolatry,” adoration of bread? Don’t you see that you are contradicting yourself in saying that?

This writing will elucidate my own thought on the matter. Please read here:

Are you implying that I am an idolater because I believe that our Lord's Precious Body and Blood are truly, really, and objectively present under the form of bread and wine in the Blessed Sacrament, and that, therefore, I believe I am bound to adore our Lord Jesus Christ wherever and however He may be present, being God? If so, then I am most certainly an idolater, as is 9/10 of the Christian world (including all of Old Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy, Chalcedonian Orthodoxy, the Assyrian Church, and Roman Catholicism) which believes in the Real Objective Presence of the True Body and Blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

[See: http://philorthodox.blogspot.com.au/200 ... ry_13.html]

In Christ,
Nadir

So Jesus was saying to those Ιουδαιους [Judeans] who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

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Maria
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by Maria »

NadirGP wrote:
Jean-Serge wrote:

Such things do not exist in the orthodox church : there is no artolatry (adoration of the bread). Practically speaking, this bread is in the sanctuary, behind the altar, a place where only priests, deaconsand those allowed enter. In the orthodox church, this communion exists only to be consumed : "Take and eat", not "Take and adorate".

Jean-Serge,

You wrote:

“Such things do not exist in the orthodox church: there is no artolatry (adoration of the bread).”


It is my understanding that once the bread (and wine) has been consecrated, it is not bread any more, but changed into the Body of Jesus Christ. Why then ascribing this act of veneration in front of tabernacle … as “atolatry,” adoration of bread? Don’t you see that you are contradicting yourself in saying that?

This writing will elucidate my own thought on the matter. Please read here:

Are you implying that I am an idolater because I believe that our Lord's Precious Body and Blood are truly, really, and objectively present under the form of bread and wine in the Blessed Sacrament, and that, therefore, I believe I am bound to adore our Lord Jesus Christ wherever and however He may be present, being God? If so, then I am most certainly an idolater, as is 9/10 of the Christian world (including all of Old Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy, Chalcedonian Orthodoxy, the Assyrian Church, and Roman Catholicism) which believes in the Real Objective Presence of the True Body and Blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

[See: http://philorthodox.blogspot.com.au/200 ... ry_13.html]

In Christ,
Nadir

Nadir,

You raise a good point. It seems like some Orthodox Priests are quick to condemn Catholics for adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Yet, at the Presanctified Liturgy, which was gifted to the Orthodox Christians by Pope St. Gregory the Great, we Orthodox Christians do fall down prostrate as the Presanctified Gifts (The Body and Blood of Christ) are brought out of the Tabernacle in procession and then placed on the altar. We are adoring Christ present in the Eucharist, are we not?

Below is the Cherubicon that is sung during the Presanctified Liturgy just before Holy Communion is distributed. Note that only the choir remains standing so that they can sing, but as soon as they finish singing, they make a prostration with the rest of the people while the Priest continues in procession to the Holy Altar with the Holy Gifts (the very Body and Blood of our Lord God and Savior, Jesus Christ).

  • Behold now the Heavenly Powers serve with us in an invisible manner; for behold the King of Glory passeth by.
    Behold the Mystical Sacrifice goeth out in perfect procession.
    Let us come forward in faith and longing that we may become partakers of eternal life.
    Alleluia.

Reference: Nassar, Seraphim, Divine Prayers and Services of the Catholic Orthodox Church of Christ (1938), Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese, 1993, p. 664

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Maria
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by Maria »

I have edited my post in blue font to add clarification:

  • Nadir,

    You raise a good point. I have met some Orthodox Priests and laity who are quick to condemn Catholics for adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Most of these are converts from Roman Catholicism or Protestantism. Yet, at the Presanctified Liturgy, which was gifted to the Orthodox Christians by Pope St. Gregory the Great, we Orthodox Christians do fall down prostrate as the Presanctified Gifts (The Body and Blood of Christ) are brought out of the Tabernacle in procession and then placed on the altar. We are adoring Christ present in the Eucharist, are we not?

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Jean-Serge
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by Jean-Serge »

Maria wrote:

We are adoring Christ present in the Eucharist, are we not?

No, a prosternation may have many meanings, be an act of respect and not of adoration, like a metany. When you make a metany before asking a blessing, you don't adore the priest. During the presanctified liturgy, there is also a prosternation at "The light of Christ illuminates the universe", it seems to me the the priest says this holding a candle: we don't adore the candle. There are prosternations during the vespers of Pentecost... If there were such adoration, the gifts would be exposed far more often. The teaching is definitely, "Take and eat". For veneration, there are the icons. I have no knowledge of testimonies of adoration by the Fathers.

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

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NadirGP
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Re: Divine Liturgy - Eucharist

Post by NadirGP »

Jean-Serge wrote:
Maria wrote:

We are adoring Christ present in the Eucharist, are we not?

No, a prosternation may have many meanings, be an act of respect and not of adoration, like a metany. When you make a metany before asking a blessing, you don't adore the priest. During the presanctified liturgy, there is also a prosternation at "The light of Christ illuminates the universe", it seems to me the the priest says this holding a candle: we don't adore the candle. There are prosternations during the vespers of Pentecost... If there were such adoration, the gifts would be exposed far more often. The teaching is definitely, "Take and eat". For veneration, there are the icons. I have no knowledge of testimonies of adoration by the Fathers.

Jean-Serge,

You are not answering Maria’s assertion, “We are adoring Christ present in the Eucharist, are we not?”

As for saying you have no knowledge of testimonies of adoration by the Fathers, you sound a bit like a Protestant.

Here, read an excerpt from The Eucharistic Controversy, by James DeKoven.

1. Immediately before the Creed is said, which in the Liturgy of S. Chrysostom precedes the Sursum Corda, the Priest says:
"Christ is among us.
He is, and will be."
[Neale's Primitive Liturgies, p. 112.]

As soon as the words of Institution are said and the Oblation begun a prayer is made to Christ to send down the Holy Ghost upon the Elements, and an ascription of praise is offered unto Him, as follows:

Blessed art Thou, Christ our God, who didst fill the fishermen with all manner of wisdom, sending down upon them the Holy Ghost: and by them hast brought the whole world into Thy net, O Lover of men: glory be to Thee.

The Invocation follows, and the great Intercession. The Consecration being now complete, and the Consecrated Elements having become the Body and Blood of the Lord, the Deacon says:--"Let us bow our Heads to the Lord." Then follows what is called the Prayer of Intense Adoration. In the Liturgy of S. Chrysostom it is in two sections. The first part is addressed to God the Father; the second section is as follows:--

Hear us, O Lord Jesus Christ our God, out of Thy Holy dwelling place, and from the throne of the glory of Thy Kingdom, and come and sanctify us, Thou that sittest above with the Father, and art here invisibly present with us: and by Thy mighty Hand make us worthy to partake of Thy spotless Body and precious Blood, and by us all Thy people." [Ibid., p. 120.]

When we consider the position of this Prayer, before any one, even the Priests, have received, yet after the Consecration, with its twofold assertion of Christ's Presence in Heaven, and His invisible Presence in the Eucharist, it is the more striking.

Then follows the Elevating the Holy Bread with the Exclamation: "Holy Things for Holy Persons," and when these words are uttered the Choir burst forth:
One Holy, one Lord, Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father.
What can this be but the adoration of a present Saviour!

http://anglicanhistory.org/dekoven/controversy1874.html

So Jesus was saying to those Ιουδαιους [Judeans] who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

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