Is Getting a Mail-Order Bride a Good Idea?

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jgress
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Re: Is Getting a Mail-Order Bride a Good Idea?

Post by jgress »

I second Maria: if you're not on the same page concerning pre-marital sex, that is probably the most dangerous thing. She needs to be willing to maintain a long-term relationship with you while saving sex for marriage, which most young people just don't believe in nowadays/ So try to clear that up from the beginning. It's possible that she may accept this, but as it's kind of an unspoken expectation in the modern dating scene it will probably be up to you to raise the issue. If you don't make your own expectations clear, she may wonder why you don't make moves on her and give up on you.

The upside is that you will most likely feel a great psychological burden lifted when you don't feel under pressure to "make the first move"; she may even feel a similar burden lifted. Feeling pressure to have sex is a real problem in modern relationships, but one which isn't well discussed because of the prevailing bias against chastity and virginity.

There are priests in my jurisdiction with relevant pastoral experience you could talk to, e.g. about appropriate levels of intimacy in pre-marital relationships. We organize youth camps that can supplement Orthodox fellowship organizations and although I haven't attended one myself I'm sure these issues are frequently discussed. You're better off talking to someone like that than soliciting advice from the forum, where we may not have the requisite pastoral experience. What we can do is tell you what the basic rules surrounding marriage are, and maybe something from our own experiences that could be helpful, but that's about it.

I suppose one more piece of advice is not to worry about your situation too much, and this includes over-analyzing your situation, which I feel you fall into when you make all these specifications about what you want in a future wife. Who you end up with may not necessarily meet these specifications, but she will still be the wife that God intends for you. Ultimately it's not in your hands or in anyone else's (this goes for arranged marriages, too!); it's in the Lord's hands.

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Jean-Serge
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Re: Is Getting a Mail-Order Bride a Good Idea?

Post by Jean-Serge »

I would not recommend mail-order bride. A lady coming from a traditional orthodox country is not necesarily a pious orthodox herself. For many people in Russia, being orthodox summarizes to wearing a cross...

I would rule out dating non-orthodox. Dating serves to know one another in a sentimental relationship for the purpose of getting married. But it is not possible to marry a non-orthodox person if one is a serious orthodox. Then, the dating process is doomed since the beginning. At least, you should state since the beginning that having the same faith is a pre-requisite for you, but after doing this, both must have the courage to break if you see that religiously speaking you don't reach an agreement.

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

jgress
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Re: Is Getting a Mail-Order Bride a Good Idea?

Post by jgress »

Jean-Serge wrote:

I would not recommend mail-order bride. A lady coming from a traditional orthodox country is not necesarily a pious orthodox herself. For many people in Russia, being orthodox summarizes to wearing a cross...

I would rule out dating non-orthodox. Dating serves to know one another in a sentimental relationship for the purpose of getting married. But it is not possible to marry a non-orthodox person if one is a serious orthodox. Then, the dating process is doomed since the beginning. At least, you should state since the beginning that having the same faith is a pre-requisite for you, but after doing this, both must have the courage to break if you see that religiously speaking you don't reach an agreement.

Sometimes dating an Orthodox person leads one to the faith, so I wouldn't rule it out absolutely. What you should do is make it clear from the beginning what it would take to get married, i.e. conversion, and do that before you get too close to each other.

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Re: Is Getting a Mail-Order Bride a Good Idea?

Post by Jean-Serge »

jgress wrote:

Sometimes dating an Orthodox person leads one to the faith, so I wouldn't rule it out absolutely. What you should do is make it clear from the beginning what it would take to get married, i.e. conversion, and do that before you get too close to each other.

Sometimes, it also leads to the loss of faith, or diminution of faith or practice to please the other one... The other point is that the other one can convert without faith only to please you and marry you.

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Barbara
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Re: Is Getting a Mail-Order Bride a Good Idea?

Post by Barbara »

Those are good observations, Jean-Serge.

It's true that the move to get baptised in Russia probably peaked LONG AGO and there is not
as much fervor as is often portrayed to the West. Especially, of course, probably to
Rocor-MP members who still harbor many concerns about the 2007 'union'.
Even if they travel on a one week or two week pilgrimage to holy places of Russia, they are unable to
grasp the larger picture of the intensity of religious fervor today, especially among the youth.
One would probably have to live there to assess correctly indices of Orthodox practice and belief.

Then, too, let's not forget that these women, especially if born during the Soviet era, are skilled manipulators.
They can EASILY fool a naive American man into believing they are pious.
In fact, they may be shamming.
One has to assume that and test them.

It's laborious, and requires much awareness of their scams.
I would never even look at one of the infamous Russian or Ukrainian "dating sites", period.
They are set up to lure in the unsuspecting, charge them a lot of money, and take them to the cleaners.

This topic interests me, so I am glad you brought it up.

Does anyone here have any stories they have heard of such matches, either successful, or non ?!

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Re: Is Getting a Mail-Order Bride a Good Idea?

Post by jgress »

Jean-Serge wrote:
jgress wrote:

Sometimes dating an Orthodox person leads one to the faith, so I wouldn't rule it out absolutely. What you should do is make it clear from the beginning what it would take to get married, i.e. conversion, and do that before you get too close to each other.

Sometimes, it also leads to the loss of faith, or diminution of faith or practice to please the other one... The other point is that the other one can convert without faith only to please you and marry you.

Saying that you won't marry unless she converts, and that you won't have sex unless you get married, will strike the vast majority of college women as a remarkably backwards and old-fashioned attitude, so being clear on that from the beginning ought to weed out most of the completely unsuitable ones. But there's always a chance you'll meet a woman who will actually be impressed by the courage of your convictions and wish to know more about your faith.

But I agree with JS that you should first look for a wife among Orthodox women. That goes without saying. I'm just saying that, if in the course of your college career, you get to know a non-Orthodox woman and you find you like each other and have a lot in common, don't cut her off just because you're non-Orthodox. Rather, take the opportunity to talk about your faith and what's important to you, including what's important to you in terms of your attitude and relationship towards women and marriage. If that turns out to be a deal-breaker for her, then you can break it off before you get too involved.

And don't buy into romantic ideas of finding your one "soul mate" or "Ms Right" or that "the heart knows what it wants". Yes, some women will obviously be more compatible and likable than others, but if you find that someone very compatible won't accept Orthodoxy for you, don't think there won't be someone else just as suitable (and you'll find that not sharing your faith will turn out to be a major incompatibility, even if not apparent during the first excitement of falling in love). And if you look among Orthodox women, of course, this won't even be an issue.

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Re: Is Getting a Mail-Order Bride a Good Idea?

Post by joasia »

CHRIST IS BORN!

I think also it is more difficult for a young man than an older woman. It may be harder for joasia to appreciate your struggles for this reason.

You think I can't appreciate his struggles??? I wasn't born old, Jonathan. I was pretty young in my days too. Way before you were born. And I know what I'm talking about. But, it is a common reaction that young people don't heed the advice of old timers (if you consider 48 old). I didn't either when I was that young. I made plenty of mistakes because I didn't have the Orthodox teachings to guide me. I made plenty of wrong decisions. This is why I want to share my views. NOW, I see what was happening back when I was a young woman. Now, I understand and I want to share that knowledge.

I agree with Jonathan on one aspect, it's God that makes the decision on whether we get married or not. That's because God sees what is best for our salvation, either married or monastic. In Orthodoxy there are only two choices. The middle road of being single but being secular is not a good path. There are some of us that are living that path now. But, it doesn't mean that we aren't meant to get married or become monks/nuns in the future. I have a dear female friend who got married at 46. God put them together. I am sure of it. They are perfect for each other. But, I have never been married and am thinking that I will eventually become a nun. I can't live in this society as a single woman because my heart wants to make a decision. The Orthodox mentality is that we want to devout our lives to God and that is either in marriage or monastism.

So James, if you want to do what's right by God, be patient. You sound like you want to get married so fast and that's why I analysed that you have your physical struggles that you want to relieve. If you can be honest, you will realize that your intentions are not so pure as you portray them to be.

Here's a challenge. Let's say you meet a nice Orthodox girl. It takes a good 2 years to get to know someone in order to feel that this is someone that you love with all your heart and want to spend the rest of your life with her. Will you be content to be with her, in a celibate way, for those two years? Not even a little bit of kissing. If sex is not the drive, then you are on a good path. But, from what I know about youth (which I was at one time) this is a great struggle. So, if you want Orthodox counselling, you should be honest with us. I don't judge, but when I see someone trying to pretend what he's not, then I call it. I'm saying this because I used to be your age and knew boys your age. They are the same today as they were 30 years ago. I can certainly tell you some stories of what I've done...but I won't. Just know that I care about what you're going through and want to help you through it. I never had this kind of support for myself.

In Christ,
Joanna

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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