How many people know what the Typica is or how to pray it?

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Jean-Serge
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Re: How many people know what the Typica is or how to pray i

Post by Jean-Serge »

The is no rigid rule for laymen, the only rule is to do as much as you can as taught by the parable on the talents. If you read Christian morality, you will see that the "rule" recommended to laymen by Saint Nikodemus was to go to church twice daily in the morning and in the evening (which supposes vespers and matins), and if this was impossible, to use as substitute prayer at home. He talks about Jesus prayer but I guess that then, people did not have liturgical books at home. His recommandation was to pray 2 hours a day (for anybody) since the 22 other hours were dedicated to the body.

I am not judging but simply stating that attending heterodox services is uncanonical and spiritually dangerous. Those who do not agree with this can complain to the authors of the canons or give better ecclesiological argumentation on their opinion instead of launching accusation of judgment etc. It is the consequence of basic orthodox ecclesiology that teaches that praying with others has as prequisite sharing the same faith as them. People's laziness do not allow to break the canons and pray with heretics. They are to make violence to themselves and force themselves, which is anyway very often the case when you are to pray because the Evil is there, inviting you to spend more time in bed, watch TV etc. You do not avoid a temptation going into another sin... or doing something incorrect.

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jgress
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Re: How many people know what the Typica is or how to pray i

Post by jgress »

You guys are all correct as far as the rules go, but it's up to the bishop to determine what economies to allow. I've come across several declarations that explicitly forbid GOC members from communing outside the True Orthodox Church (e.g. Metropolitan Pavlos' encyclical from 2001), but I don't know of any that specifically forbid just attending services (there might be some out there, but I don't know of them). I'm sure you're right that in principle it shouldn't be done, but I can imagine circumstances where a layman might be allowed to do so. If you personally think that's a bad idea, then you're entitled to your opinion, but you ain't a bishop so it's ultimately none of your business.

I would certainly add that any GOC layman reading this and thinking it's OK to just go to a World Orthodox church if it's convenient should not do so without first consulting his spiritual father.

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Barbara
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Re: How many people know what the Typica is or how to pray i

Post by Barbara »

I especially like this what Jean-Serge stated :

"Attending world orthodox assemblies also has some collateral effects. By your presence, you seem to legitimate their false church; world orthodox people will believe you acknowledge their church since you come and receive the blessings from their priests ("Peace to all")"

Powerful points for all to keep in mind, as they may not realize the repercussions of what they may think of as a convenience, dropping in at a World Orthodox service because no True Orthodox churches are near.

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Suaidan
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Re: How many people know what the Typica is or how to pray i

Post by Suaidan »

jgress wrote:

You guys are all correct as far as the rules go, but it's up to the bishop to determine what economies to allow. I've come across several declarations that explicitly forbid GOC members from communing outside the True Orthodox Church (e.g. Metropolitan Pavlos' encyclical from 2001), but I don't know of any that specifically forbid just attending services (there might be some out there, but I don't know of them). I'm sure you're right that in principle it shouldn't be done, but I can imagine circumstances where a layman might be allowed to do so. If you personally think that's a bad idea, then you're entitled to your opinion, but you ain't a bishop so it's ultimately none of your business.

I would certainly add that any GOC layman reading this and thinking it's OK to just go to a World Orthodox church if it's convenient should not do so without first consulting his spiritual father.

The canons forbid attendance at the services of heretics. It's late. Do I have to look them up?

Fr Joseph Suaidan (Suaiden, same guy)

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Jean-Serge
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Re: How many people know what the Typica is or how to pray i

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Bishops are not above the canons, in particular when there is a dogmatic hint in the canon... Following your opinion, you could not object to world orthodox praying with heretics if the bishop allows so, in particular in the cases of jurisdiction that are strict regarding ecumenism like Georgia, Church of Greece and do not recognise heretical mysteries or do not give them communion, or receive communion from them. The answer you make,it is done out of economy and my bishop or spiritual father allowed it, is typically in world orthodoxy the answer of from those involved in ecumenism.

Bishopolatry is not orthodox. Neither is anyone making its own rule of course. There is a necessary balance into the two extremes. I like very much this quote from Gennadios Scholarios:

“Keep an eye on your bishops as far as their Orthodoxy is concerned lest they go so far as to teach doctrines against the true faith or celebrate with heretics and schismatics. As far as other things, they act out of ignorance or because the days are evil and they will give an account to God only.”

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Jean-Serge
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Re: How many people know what the Typica is or how to pray i

Post by Jean-Serge »

Jean-Serge wrote:

Bishops are not above the canons, in particular when there is a dogmatic hint in the canon... Following your opinion, you could not object to world orthodox praying with heretics if the bishop allows so, in particular in the cases of jurisdiction that are strict regarding ecumenism like Georgia, Church of Greece and do not recognise heretical mysteries or do not give them communion, or receive communion from them. The answer you make,it is done out of economy and my bishop or spiritual father allowed it, is typically in world orthodoxy the answer of from those involved in ecumenism. Paradoxically, it kills many critics against ecumenism.

Bishopolatry is not orthodox. Neither is anyone making its own rule of course. There is a necessary balance into the two extremes. I like very much this quote from Gennadios Scholarios:

“Keep an eye on your bishops as far as their Orthodoxy is concerned lest they go so far as to teach doctrines against the true faith or celebrate with heretics and schismatics. As far as other things, they act out of ignorance or because the days are evil and they will give an account to God only.”

By the way, one of the best essays regarding prayer with heretics was written by a New Calendar priest and was published here

Part 1: http://www.oodegr.com/english/oikoumenismos/ou_dei.htm
Part 2: http://www.oodegr.com/english/oikoumenismos/ou_dei.htm

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

jgress
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Re: How many people know what the Typica is or how to pray i

Post by jgress »

Well, a lot of conservative new calendarists think that ecumenism hasn't reached the lower levels, and they think ecumenism is just their bishops having dialogues with the heterodox. Fr Maximus Marretta wrote about this in his essay against the conservative position and how even if your own priest and parish are conservative and don't engage in ecumenism, it is the actions of the bishop that determine your ecclesiological status. But you are probably right that bishops and priests in the WO churches would be more lax about letting their spiritual children attend heterodox services.

However, I suppose it might follow that if your ecclesiological status is determined by the ecumenical actions of your bishop, even you personally don't participate in prayer with heterodox, then if your bishop refrains from prayer with heterodox you might still attend a heterodox service without automatically being expelled from the church, since the canons don't apply themselves but they must be applied by the bishop. Certainly, if the bishop applies the canons not according to the Holy Spirit then he will give an account to God for it.

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