How many people know what the Typica is or how to pray it?

[Maria]

Well, a lot of conservative new calendarists think that ecumenism hasn't reached the lower levels, and they think ecumenism is just their bishops having dialogues with the heterodox. Fr Maximus Marretta wrote about this in his essay against the conservative position and how even if your own priest and parish are conservative and don't engage in ecumenism, it is the actions of the bishop that determine your ecclesiological status. But you are probably right that bishops and priests in the WO churches would be more lax about letting their spiritual children attend heterodox services.

However, I suppose it might follow that if your ecclesiological status is determined by the ecumenical actions of your bishop, even you personally don't participate in prayer with heterodox, then if your bishop refrains from prayer with heterodox you might still attend a heterodox service without automatically being expelled from the church, since the canons don't apply themselves but they must be applied by the bishop. Certainly, if the bishop applies the canons not according to the Holy Spirit then he will give an account to God for it.

Interesting you should mention this, Jonathan.

When I was in World Orthodoxy, certain bishops and priests would let us attend Ecumenical Vespers with the Roman Catholics and Protestant ministers, some of which were radical feminists, liberals, or women priests. These Ecumenical Vespers services allowed these radical Protestants to alter the words as they objected to the use of Father, Son, Master, Lord, brethren, and brother. While the now retired Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco (OCA) did not want any of his choir members to attend these Ecumenical Services, the GOARCH allowed this to happen. However, Bishop Tikhon did attend other pan-Orthodox services, such as the Pan-Orthodox Sunday of Orthodox services with the Bishops in the GOA, Serbian, Antiochian and Greek jurisdictions, so he was still in communion with Ecumenistic bishops.

However, these same World Orthodox bishops and priests would forbid us to attend any True Orthodox churches.

[jgress]

I have heard one new calendarist argument that, just as bishops don't always apply the canons to the letter in the administration of their diocese or in imposing penances, so the bishops in the new calendar church ought to be able to apply economia in their own case, which is why they can get away with attending and participating in heterodox services. But you can't apply economia to yourself, right? It's one thing if a layman gets a special dispensation to do this or that, since that will be on the bishop's conscience, but if the bishop decides to do away with some rule for his own sake, that still goes on his conscience. The buck stops with the bishop, in other words.

[Maria]

I have heard one new calendarist argument that, just as bishops don't always apply the canons to the letter in the administration of their diocese or in imposing penances, so the bishops in the new calendar church ought to be able to apply economia in their own case, which is why they can get away with attending and participating in heterodox services. But you can't apply economia to yourself, right? It's one thing if a layman gets a special dispensation to do this or that, since that will be on the bishop's conscience, but if the bishop decides to do away with some rule for his own sake, that still goes on his conscience. The buck stops with the bishop, in other words.

That is why the Bishops are the Lamp posts in hell!

[Jean-Serge]

It's one thing if a layman gets a special dispensation to do this or that, since that will be on the bishop's conscience

A bit too easy to put everything on the bishop. The layman is responsible for his actions before God. This mentality destroys personal responsibility; we have a brain to think also.

[Barbara]

Agree. While the Bishop has SOME spiritual responsibility for his flock, it's absurd to blame him when the flock or
individual parishioners go astray ! Especially THESE days with all the insidious things tempting people. He can guide,
but he can't force them to toe the correct line. It's up to them to receive the message of his sermons or epistles and
apply the message in their lives ! Otherwise, too, the parishioners need to read, study, pray, read Typica, and manage their lives effectively and according to the standards of God's Church.
Abbots also have responsibility for the souls in their monasteries. But they cannot be blamed for a monk's bad behavior.
They can be blamed when they don't restrain the monk or punish him for any wrongdoing.
Sometimes, the role of Bishops and Abbots has been over-stressed, it seems to me.

[jgress]

Agree. While the Bishop has SOME spiritual responsibility for his flock, it's absurd to blame him when the flock or
individual parishioners go astray ! Especially THESE days with all the insidious things tempting people. He can guide,
but he can't force them to toe the correct line. It's up to them to receive the message of his sermons or epistles and
apply the message in their lives ! Otherwise, too, the parishioners need to read, study, pray, read Typica, and manage their lives effectively and according to the standards of God's Church.
Abbots also have responsibility for the souls in their monasteries. But they cannot be blamed for a monk's bad behavior.
They can be blamed when they don't restrain the monk or punish him for any wrongdoing.
Sometimes, the role of Bishops and Abbots has been over-stressed, it seems to me.

Actually we're not talking about instances where a layman disobeys his bishop, but where he obeys him but the bishop is himself in error and the layman should know better. Jean-Serge seems to be saying that if your bishop gives you permission to attend a non-True Orthodox service you still shouldn't go, which I find doubtful.

[Jean-Serge]

Jean-Serge seems to be saying that if your bishop gives you permission to attend a non-True Orthodox service you still shouldn't go, which I find doubtful.

In such case, I would say your bishop is doubtful.