Marriage

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Maria
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Re: Marriage

Post by Maria »

Lydia wrote:
jgress wrote:

Well all I know is what's customary at St Markella's since I've only been to weddings there, and there they did not receive communion. We are strict about not performing church weddings for inter-faith couples, however. As I said, receiving communion after the wedding is part of the authentic marriage service, so what your priest says is correct, but I've also read that because of the traditional abstinence from sexual relations for one day after receiving, marriage services are typically not combined with communion any longer. It could be things work differently in your jurisdiction!

The GOC denies communion to a newly-married couple so that they can have marital relations right away? That's a rather sad commentary on human weakness.
It's a good thing Russian wedding receptions last all day and all night! :D

Exactly. My son's wedding reception ended past midnight. Besides, they did not get to their honeymoon destination until the dawn's light because they had to drive there, and traffic was extremely heavy due to fires, an ever present threat in California.

In the Early Church, newlyweds received Holy Communion which sealed their Holy Crowning. Why the change, or was there a change?

We know that the Holy Service of Crowning changed shortly after the Edit of Milan when Christianity was tolerated, and then once again when the Church was charged with performing marriage ceremonies after Orthodoxy had became the state religion. It was at that time, according to Father Alexander Schmemann that Holy Communion was not generally served because of all the mixed-faith marriages, so the "cup of blessing" was served instead of Holy Communion.

Did abstinence from holy kisses and the marital embrace before and after the reception of Holy Communion occur under the influence of Blessed Augustine?

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Barbara
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Re: Marriage

Post by Barbara »

Interesting discussion. I didn't know all these details.
It is too bad that the interfaith marriages began so early and seem to be mushrooming in the
last few decades ? How long has this trend been going on, would anyone say ?
Last 40 years maybe ?

jgress
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Re: Marriage

Post by jgress »

I imagine inter-faith marriages are more common where the population is mixed between Orthodox and non-Orthodox. It's easy to be strict about marriage only within the Church when practically everybody around is in the Church; when most of the population is not Orthodox it's a bit more difficult so you're going to find more mixed marriages.

I'm pretty sure performing mixed marriages within the Church itself is a newer thing, however. I know Peter the Great made the Russian Church allow marriages between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Trinitarian Christians to be performed in church; in the same way the Russian Church at that time adopted the practice of receiving Trinitarian Christians, like Catholics and Lutherans, through chrismation only, not baptism. The strict canonical practice is to allow marriages in church only between Orthodox.

It's quite possible that the custom of partaking of blessed wine rather than Communion was because of the prevalence of mixed marriages, and that the custom was reinterpreted as a concession to human weakness, perhaps in the context of the new custom of abstaining from sex the night after receiving. I don't know when the latter became customary, and honestly I don't really get why it's fine to throw a huge party with lots of food and drink and dancing after marrying and receiving communion, but it's not OK for the couple to have sex!

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Barbara
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Re: Marriage

Post by Barbara »

Ah, I didn't know it was Peter I who pushed for that. Makes sense, for he did away with the Patriarchate after the
death of Patriarch Adrian, and installed a rather subservient group led by the Oberprocurator, a layman. [Unbelievable !]
I wish he had never voyaged to Holland....

Hieromonk Enoch
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Re: Marriage

Post by Hieromonk Enoch »

One may say there is a difference between 'sacramental' Marriage, that is the Mystery of Matrimony, and a civil marriage. Civil marriage falls into a general sort of category, that one might call a 'natural' marriage. It is common and 'natural' to all civilizations, religions, etc.

However, the Sacrament is, while similar to a non-sacramental Marriage, different. Ap. Cn. 17, for example, states that marriages that happen after baptism (that is, within the Church, and are thus a blessed and holy Mystery) are the only thing that counts against a man, say, in receiving Holy Orders. While St. Ambrose, for example, a few Fathers seem to have a contrary opinion (or so it seems based upon St. Ambrose' work on the 'Duties of the Clergy', though, he expresses opinions on another subject that did no receive the approbation of the Church), ultimately, the rulings of the Apostolic Canons should prevail, since they were elevated to Ecumenical status by Trullo (and Trullo's acceptance by Nicea II the Seventh Council).

The cases of people who are received into the Church, even by methods other than Baptism can easily be understood in this same context (since, even those received by Chrismation, or the much rare Confession, assuming that so is from a group outside the Church and which had an acceptable Baptismal, are received and given the Grace lacking in a previous form, and thus like Baptism).

Yet, in cases in which a person comes from a non-Orthodox group and into the Church, and, say, both spouses accept the Faith, and they are no given the outward rite of the Mystery of Matrimony can only seemingly be justified on grounds that, perhaps, explicit mention has been made by the Bishop that they are both considered sacramentally married. However, this becomes more untenable to proclaim a 'sacramental' marriage by fiat when you are dealing with one party that is converting to Orthodoxy, but the other spouse who remains non-Orthodox. In that case, it is still a marriage, as listed by St. Paul's example in Corinthians, but, how can it be an Holy Mystery?

There are many cases in which a Bishop can use economy and one is sure to find complicated circumstances. However, this is why it seems wisest to, if possible, avoid circumstances that leave room for ambiguity.

In Christ

Fr. Enoch (who is no longer Fr. Augustine but has not created a new account to displace the old one)

“We cannot destroy the Ecclesiastical Canons, who are defenders and keepers of the Canons, not their transgressors.” (Pope St. Martin the Confessor)

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Maria
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Re: Marriage

Post by Maria »

Dear Father Enoch,

What would happen when a person wants to join the True Orthodox Church, but their spouse highly disapproves? Furthermore if their spouse wants to remain in:
a. World Orthodoxy or one of the Oriental churches such as the Coptics or Armenians.
b. Roman Catholicism
c. Protestantism
d. Oneness Pentecostalism or another branch of Protestantism that denies the Holy Trinity
e. Judaism
f. Islam
g. Buddhism, Hinduism, or another "pagan" religion
h. agnosticism or atheism,

Would the inquirer be allowed to be received into True Orthodoxy?
If so, would their marriage be considered a natural marriage?
Could they receive Holy Communion after their baptism or chrismation?

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Hieromonk Enoch
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Re: Marriage

Post by Hieromonk Enoch »

Read 1 Corinthians 7
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=AKJV

No one who repents and wishes to join Holy Orthodoxy can be prohibited from so, no matter the religion of their spouse who is against it. If their spouse disapproves then too bad for the spouse. Sure they can join Orthodoxy. Their marriage would be considered in the same sense that St. Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 7. Sure such a convert than take the Mysteries.

Their marriage (that is, of one who is Orthodox and one who is not) is something that existed outside the Church and was not a Sacrament, and because both parties were not Orthodox, nor was anything done either by giving them the Marriage rite (Mystery), or even giving some sort of ecclesiastical decree from the Bishop on the matter, then it cannot be considered a Sacrament.

The union is not sinful, that is, in such cases of one party converting to Orthodoxy while the other is not, otherwise they would be involved in fornication or their children would be illegitimate.

However, if both parties convert to Orthodoxy the Sacrament of Matrimony should be given; at the very least their should be some sort of ecclesiastical decree or formal statement from the Bishop approving of it in the Holy Church.

In Christ,

Fr. Enoch

“We cannot destroy the Ecclesiastical Canons, who are defenders and keepers of the Canons, not their transgressors.” (Pope St. Martin the Confessor)

http://nftu.net/

http://westernorthodoxchristian.blogspot.com/

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