Let's Keep Our Distance

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.
Logos
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Let's Keep Our Distance

Post by Logos »

I found this article on the web. I am curious what the people of ROCOR think about it and about the dialogue with Rome in general.

LET'S KEEP OUR DISTANCE

For Orthodox leaders to engage in dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church is both futile and dangerous

Frank Schaeffer

Until the Orthodox get good answers to two questions we have no reason to even consider reunion with Rome. These questions are: What authority will the pope have within a newly "unified" church? And what would our worship be like after reunion? Our Orthodox day-to-day relationship with the Roman Catholic community should be the same as it is with all other people of goodwill, one of love and shared common human aspirations. But this love and these shared goals must be rooted in an honest recognition of the very real differences we have. I do not believe Christian love needs to be expressed by formal declarations of reunion. We have the right to ask, reunion with what?

Roman Catholic identity is bound up with papal authority. Talk of the church having "two lungs" (East and West) aside, the truth is that at no time in the foreseeable future is Rome about to relinquish its claim to headship of the Universal Church. (For a complete study see "Two Paths: Papal Monarchy - Collegial Tradition" by Michael Whelton.)

Speaking of union without addressing the issue of papal authority is like two governments trying to negotiate union when one is a democracy and the other a dictatorship. Rome is not about to renounce the bishop of Rome's authority to pronounce "infallibly" on matters of faith and life, a dogma not adopted till 1870. Indeed, as the pope uses his authority to call for unity between Catholics and Orthodox, he handily illustrates our biggest difference: papal-monarchy vs. collegial tradition. What Orthodox bishop could presume to speak for all the bishops, or be in a position to impose "unity" on the whole Orthodox community? We make decisions as a collegial body, in council; no single leader holds exclusive power.

"Reunion" is a misleading word to use anyway, because it implies we Orthodox would be "coming back" to something we left. But the Roman church today is not the one that separated from us in 1054, over this very issue of papal monarchism, as well as the pope's authority to add a new doctrine to the Nicene Creed. Even Western Christians of 1054 would not recognize their church today. Ironically, they would feel more at home in the Orthodox Church than their own, particularly when it comes to worship. This is because Orthodoxy, despite its diverse jurisdictions, has done a far better job of maintaining liturgical integrity and historic practice than have the Roman Catholics within their centralized papal monarchy.

Worship is the one area that should matter most to us. If the Orthodox were drawn into the liturgical chaos of the modernized Roman Church, it would be tragic.

The Roman liturgical tradition has disintegrated aesthetically, and as the beauty of worship disappears, so does awe. Prayer is a teacher, and minimized, modernized prayer fails to teach very much. It is our rich, historic, and theologically packed liturgical tradition that is the treasure of Orthodoxy. How might that change if we blended with a church that has rejected so many ancient traditions of Christian worship--fasts, rites, mystery, and poetry?

Eastern-Rite Catholics may be secure behind the doors of their buildings, but how does it impact them when their sister Roman Rite church down the street has jettisoned ancient tradition? What kind of theological or spiritual "bleed through" occurs? Could we Orthodox retain our fasts, vigils, and liturgies in communion with a body that for decades now has been thoroughly Protestantized and that has replaced a sense of the sacred with trivial entertainment values? Will we Orthodox be merely tolerated in an "I'm OK, you're OK" climate of liturgical relativism? Is there no right way to worship? If there is not, then why do we bother now to fast and pray as did our forefathers?

Drop in on your local Roman Rite parish and witness hand-waving "praise" masses, cookies for children during the Eucharist, interpretive dancers fluttering down the aisles, lame "Peter, Paul and Mary"-style folk music, and all similar trappings of post-Vatican II worship. It's not something we Orthodox want to go near. Nor do some Catholic churches' New Age-flavored classes in Zen meditation and enneagram spirituality have much appeal to people who call themselves "Orthodox" for a reason.

Disneyland exists, but do we all want to move there? Unity with what? That's what we need to ask.

The Orthodox liturgical tradition is too precious to be squandered to satisfy the ecumenist ambitions of any pope, Orthodox bishop, or committee of theologians. Years of fruitless "dialogue" won't be redeemed by a disastrous reunion. As traditional Roman Catholics openly say, modern innovation has destroyed the sense of the sacred in contemporary Roman worship. Traditional Catholics often drive many miles to find one of the few remaining Roman churches that worship in a way that they think can even be called Catholic.

Let us Orthodox count our blessings! Why squander our great treasure of liturgical worship and betray our collegial tradition? Why join ourselves to Rome, when Rome herself can hardly tell us what her worship is or should be, and when it will clearly not renounce the authority it wrongly claimed at the beginning of the second millennium? Orthodoxy has preserved crucial elements of worship without a papal monarchy. And if church is not about worship, what is it about?

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Reunion can only come after repentance on both sides. The Orthodox must repent for whatever faults they have had in the past in keeping us apart. The Catholics must give up their innovations and also repent for whatever faults they have had in the past. The problem is much deeper than Frank is touching upon, and this is the major problem I have with reunion talks in general. We cannot reduce reunion to a discussion of how we can agree with each other on a set list of differences. The problem is much deeper, penetrating to the very essence of each Church: we must attempt to determine where things went wrong, and how to fix them. I would also suggest that people ignore Frank's recommendation of Michael Whelton's material. I've read the book he spoke of and found it to be... well... I don't think it's the greatest in the world, let's just put it that way.

Denis
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Post by Denis »

Paradõsis wrote:

Reunion can only come after repentance on both sides. The Orthodox must repent for whatever faults they have had in the past in keeping us apart. The Catholics must give up their innovations and also repent for whatever faults they have had in the past. The problem is much deeper than Frank is touching upon, and this is the major problem I have with reunion talks in general. We cannot reduce reunion to a discussion of how we can agree with each other on a set list of differences. The problem is much deeper, penetrating to the very essence of each Church: we must attempt to determine where things went wrong, and how to fix them. I would also suggest that people ignore Frank's recommendation of Michael Whelton's material. I've read the book he spoke of and found it to be... well... I don't think it's the greatest in the world, let's just put it that way.

I totally agree with the above statement. Dialogue and compromise should never be allowed to interfere with the True Faith. As far as I am concerned, Christ our Lord promise He would always be with the Church till the end of time, and He definitely has been with Orthodoxy. I would think this question should be central to the discovery of the True Church. The protestants could see how Christ had abandonned the church (Catholic) for many many signs were visible, and this explained their rejection of the church of Rome as most assumed they had rediscovered the true essence of Faith. However, they never considered the previously stated question: Christ promised he would never abandonned the Church so He had to be present with a Church right to the very present. If they ( the reformers) had contemplated this fact, they would have seen that the answer to the question resided in the East, with Constantinople and thereafter, with its daughter Russia. In a nutshell, this question and many readings and research about the Church led me over the years to this conclusion. I must add I was raised by an extremely devoted that grandmother (a Roman Catholic) who, when she died in the early 80s, was pronounced by the priest at her funeral to be litterally a Saint. I owe my spiritual education to her and throughly believe she would agree with all that is said on this site, and all the conclusions I have reached over the years.

In total humility,
Denis

Serge

My two kopecks

Post by Serge »

I

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

[quote]Orthodox are agnostic about grace or lack thereof in it, as long as it

Logos
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Post by Logos »

I am always leary of discussions that speculate where the grace of God is. God will work where he wants to, he does not needs us to tell him where he should be.

fserafim
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Post by fserafim »

We understand grace differently from the Protestants who see grace in terms of God's mercy towards mankind. In that sense there is grace everywhere. However, we as Orthodox, see grace also as power (dynamis) which is only received through the mysteries of the Church i.e. Baptism and Holy Communion for example. The argument that the Holy Spirit is everywhere and therefore is the possession of all who believe, is based on a misunderstanding of the spiritual nature of Orthodox Christians, who are different from other people in that they possess the Holy Spirit on the inside.

Outside of the Church, people are affected by the Holy Spirit externally, and so they come to the Church. Within the Church the Holy Spirit i.e. grace works from within, like a seed that needs nurturing if the fruit of the Spirit is to be harvested at the end of time. Orthodox Christians are not of course above sin and will be judged more severely than non-Orthodox. However Orthodox Christians by the action of grace are different beings than their fellow humans. When we talk of church unity we often forget this. You can't unite opposites.. but that is probably the beginning of another thread.

Yours in Christ,

Fr Serafim

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