Old Believers and Old Calendarists

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Barbara
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Barbara »

Odd vignette told in book on St John Maximovitch's intercessions is as follows :

" When [ future Bishop Daniel of Erie, now reposed ] was a seminarian and deciding about his future, he asked the blessing of Vladika John and another hierarch (it may have been Met. Philaret) to become an Old Rite priest. Vladika John gave his blessing and added something to the effect [of]: "Stay with the Old Rite. The Old Believers need you to protect them."

This strikes me as very strange. Why would Archbishop John have said such an outlandish thing ?
Anyone have any other examples or evidence of St John's attitude toward the Old Belief ?

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Barbara wrote:

Odd vignette told in book on St John Maximovitch's intercessions is as follows :

" When [ future Bishop Daniel of Erie, now reposed ] was a seminarian and deciding about his future, he asked the blessing of Vladika John and another hierarch (it may have been Met. Philaret) to become an Old Rite priest. Vladika John gave his blessing and added something to the effect [of]: "Stay with the Old Rite. The Old Believers need you to protect them."

This strikes me as very strange. Why would Archbishop John have said such an outlandish thing ?
Anyone have any other examples or evidence of St John's attitude toward the Old Belief ?

It's not outlandish at all. The members of the Erie parish (which had previously been priestless) voted to rejoin Orthodoxy via ROCOR. So the parish itself was part of ROCOR from that point on, and it remains in communion with ROCOR-MP to this very day, maintaining the practice of the Old Rite. Bishop Daniel of blessed memory simply asked to remain within the Old Rite as a seminarian. I would be more shocked if someone from that parish went to seminary and wasn't allowed to continue within the Old Rite.

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

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So I found a reference to the sign of the cross being made with three fingers in St. (? I think he's a saint) Ælfric of Eynsham's homilies. He reposed in 1010 A.D., a really compelling piece of evidence that shows how the Orthodox-Catholic Church was fine with either method of making the sign of the cross. (Though I think I recall St. John Chrysostom saying you shouldn't do it with all five fingers, as the Latins do now).

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Maria
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Maria »

NotChrysostomYet wrote:

So I found a reference to the sign of the cross being made with three fingers in St. (? I think he's a saint) Ælfric of Eynsham's homilies. He reposed in 1010 A.D., a really compelling piece of evidence that shows how the Orthodox-Catholic Church was fine with either method of making the sign of the cross. (Though I think I recall St. John Chrysostom saying you shouldn't do it with all five fingers, as the Latins do now).

Oh, please do give us both references if you can. Thanks.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Maria wrote:
NotChrysostomYet wrote:

So I found a reference to the sign of the cross being made with three fingers in St. (? I think he's a saint) Ælfric of Eynsham's homilies. He reposed in 1010 A.D., a really compelling piece of evidence that shows how the Orthodox-Catholic Church was fine with either method of making the sign of the cross. (Though I think I recall St. John Chrysostom saying you shouldn't do it with all five fingers, as the Latins do now).

Oh, please do give us both references if you can. Thanks.

Abbot Aelfric of Eynsham [+1010AD], in his Sermon on the Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, emphasis mine:

"Though a man wave about wonderfully with his hand, nevertheless it is not a blessing except he make the Sign of the Holy Cross; and forthwith the fierce fiend will be terrified on account of the victorious token. With three fingers must a man make the Sign and bless himself for the Holy Trinity, Which is the Glory-Ruling God."

That first line itself could be taken as a reference to using five fingers (not making any sign at all).

But unfortunately, I mis-remembered the second quote. It is actually St. Theodoret (who reposed in 457 A.D. and used two fingers) that made the quote which frowns on those who "brazenly cross himself as though it were nothing ... and waves his hand back and forth". In context he is referring to the proper way to bend the fingers, not the movement itself, so it is implied that he is warning against neglecting to do so or doing so improperly. But it isn't crystal-clear and he doesn't say "five fingers" or "without any fingers bent".

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Maria
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Maria »

NotChrysostomYet wrote:
Maria wrote:
NotChrysostomYet wrote:

So I found a reference to the sign of the cross being made with three fingers in St. (? I think he's a saint) Ælfric of Eynsham's homilies. He reposed in 1010 A.D., a really compelling piece of evidence that shows how the Orthodox-Catholic Church was fine with either method of making the sign of the cross. (Though I think I recall St. John Chrysostom saying you shouldn't do it with all five fingers, as the Latins do now).

Oh, please do give us both references if you can. Thanks.

Abbot Aelfric of Eynsham [+1010AD], in his Sermon on the Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, emphasis mine:

"Though a man wave about wonderfully with his hand, nevertheless it is not a blessing except he make the Sign of the Holy Cross; and forthwith the fierce fiend will be terrified on account of the victorious token. With three fingers must a man make the Sign and bless himself for the Holy Trinity, Which is the Glory-Ruling God."

That first line itself could be taken as a reference to using five fingers (not making any sign at all).

But unfortunately, I mis-remembered the second quote. It is actually St. Theodoret (who reposed in 457 A.D. and used two fingers) that made the quote which frowns on those who "brazenly cross himself as though it were nothing ... and waves his hand back and forth". In context he is referring to the proper way to bend the fingers, not the movement itself, so it is implied that he is warning against neglecting to do so or doing so improperly. But it isn't crystal-clear and he doesn't say "five fingers" or "without any fingers bent".

Even today, some Orthodox Christians will make the Sign of the Cross as if they are swatting flies. They do not make the Sign whenever they fail to hold their fingers correctly, and/or fail to make the Sign of the Cross boldly touching the head, abdomen, right shoulder, and then the left shoulder. Neither do they make the Sign whenever they are distracted in their thoughts, or fail to pray or remember to honor the Most Holy Trinity.

Abusing the Sign of the Cross in these three ways (fingers not held correctly, Sign not made boldly, and not being attentive in our prayers) delights the devil and embarrasses our Guardian Angels.

Before I became a member of True Orthodoxy, I had heard priests from the Antiochian, Greek, OCA, and Serbian world orthodox churches give sermons on this abuse of the Sign of the Cross.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Barbara
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Re: Old Believers and Old Calendarists

Post by Barbara »

Back to Bp Daniel for a minute. So he was allowed to continue as an Old Believer through his 5 years of Jordanville ? How did he manage to attend services, then ?

Assuredly, it's better that this Old Believer, formerly known as Dmitri Borisovich Alexandrov, joined Rocor than elsewhere. But I thought I read what you wrote, NCYet, earlier, as saying that he was allowed to stay in the Old Rite UNTIL
graduation, when he would have been expected to join the Nikonian Church.

Bp Daniel's case is puzzling indeed. Then there is his student, a relatively recent Bp John, consecrated in 2008 and given the title of 'of Caracas'.

Caracas was where St John Maximovitch's parents lived. As an aside, why were they not allowed to come to America, especially after St John was named Acting and then Ruling Archbishop of San Francisco ? Another puzzling aspect to Rocor history. Did they repose in Venezuela ? Does anyone visit their graves and take care of the site ? Do priests serve pannikhidas for them, the noble parents of the Wonderworker of the age ?

Another connection between St John and Old Believers is in the fact the iconographer Pimen Sofronov - who taught the future Bp Daniel of Erie and worked with him on various churches - was selected to fresco the Saint's crypt underneath Holy Virgin Cathedral. Personally, I would have much preferred that Nikolai Zadorozhny, an émigré from the Harbin region, had been awarded this honor, as I vastly prefer his style.

Why would an Old Believer - no matter how skilled an iconographer - been chosen ? Again puzzling.
I don't even care for Pimen Sofronov's icons adorning the walls and ceiling of St John's original burial place. They are OK but rather cold. One does not feel quite right looking at them ; rather, a little alienated. To me, it dimmed a little of the light in that holy room, now fixed up as a proper chapel. That is only my reaction ; doubtless many others like Sofronov's work.

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