Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

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Barbara
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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

Post by Barbara »

Thank YOU for your thanks, Justice !
I also had never been aware of a Matthewite skete on Athos. I would like to know more about its history after the repose of the now-famous Elder Clement. Just think how spiritually attuned he was to have rushed after Brother Jose and handed him the Icon which he himself had produced. Surely, the Mother of God must have prompted this. But if the Elder were sound asleep, he might have missed Her orders. Then, none of this would ever have happened unless the Elder took Brother Jose's address and FedExed the Icon to him....]

However, on the other side of the drachma, Brother Jose might have been alive to this day, though we may not have heard of him due to his retiring personality.

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Barbara
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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

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Here is one random example of how this Icon touched lives. She brought consolation to Abbess Magdalena [Grabbe], 4th Abbess of the Lesna Convent, in her last days. Abbess Magdalena took over from her spiritual mother, the previous Abbess Theodora, in early 1977 after the latter's repose.

I found this mention in a brief sketch of the life of the sister of Bishop Gregory [Grabbe] :

"Just as Abbess Magdalena had been of comfort to many in their hour of trial, so she was comforted during the last weeks of her earthly life by the presence of the Myrrh-streaming Icon. Daily, after the Divine Liturgy, the Icon was brought to her cell and there an akathist was sung."

http://www.rocorstudies.org/2017/10/29/ ... pt-8-1987/

This, despite the fact that the Convent had its own miracle working Icon, the Lesna Mother of God.

Image
Scene of the Convent, Normandy, France

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Barbara
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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

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Well, at the recent pilgrimage from Washington DC to Brother Jose's grave at Jordanville, pannikida was served upon arrival at the gravesite for Abp Leonty of Chile, who had baptized Brother Jose, Schema Abbot Clement as well as the deceased carrier of the Icon.

I wonder whether when Met Chrysostomos of Thiva, who actually painted the Icon, according to one of our esteemed members, will be likewise memorialized upon his repose ?

The writeup from the Fr Potapov-led Washington DC group makes the strongest pitch possible for Brother Jose's glorification.

"After the panihida, during the singing and reading of the akathist to the Montreal Icon at Brother Jose’s graveside, all those present ... who desired received a small bottle with oil from the lamp on Brother Jose’s grave, dirt from his gravesite, a small photograph of the chosen one of the Mother of God, and a booklet with a canon and akathist to the Montreal Icon. The pilgrims likewise all ate the kutiablessed on his grave." - https://eadiocese.org/news_171031_1.html

I don't know what kutia is. But the rest of this is going WAY too far in my unimportant opinion.
WHY are they NOT making these annual pilgrimages to the grave of incorrupt Metropolitan Philaret of New York ???
Well, we know that the Sainted Rocor Metropolitan and Fr Potapov did NOT get along at all, with the Metropolitan having to write sternly to the wayward Washington DC priest for disobeying orders about travel to Russia and probably plenty of other infractions of the Synod's rules about dealing with the MP.

Why is it that such people choose to divert attention from the truly GREAT spiritual figures of the time to quite minor ones ?
Brother Jose is dramatically hailed by Fr Potapov as "the last Orthodox martyr of the 20th century". However, think about the persecution that Metropolitan Philaret dealt with his entire adult life for resisting Soviet demands in Harbin, Manchuria all the way through his reign as Rocor's 3rd First Hierarch. One does not have to have a lurid and tragic end to his days to be proclaimed as a bona fide Saint. Isn't jumping out of a burning building from the second story due to a raging fire set by Chekist agents in China enough drama ? Surely his escape was PROOF of the Mother of God's care for him.

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

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Barbara wrote:

Well, at the recent pilgrimage from Washington DC to Brother Jose's grave at Jordanville, pannikida was served upon arrival at the gravesite for Abp Leonty of Chile, who had baptized Brother Jose, Schema Abbot Clement as well as the deceased carrier of the Icon.

I wonder whether when Met Chrysostomos of Thiva, who actually painted the Icon, according to one of our esteemed members, will be likewise memorialized upon his repose ?

The writeup from the Fr Potapov-led Washington DC group makes the strongest pitch possible for Brother Jose's glorification.

"After the panihida, during the singing and reading of the akathist to the Montreal Icon at Brother Jose’s graveside, all those present ... who desired received a small bottle with oil from the lamp on Brother Jose’s grave, dirt from his gravesite, a small photograph of the chosen one of the Mother of God, and a booklet with a canon and akathist to the Montreal Icon. The pilgrims likewise all ate the kutiablessed on his grave." - https://eadiocese.org/news_171031_1.html

I don't know what kutia is. But the rest of this is going WAY too far in my unimportant opinion.
WHY are they NOT making these annual pilgrimages to the grave of incorrupt Metropolitan Philaret of New York ???
Well, we know that the Sainted Rocor Metropolitan and Fr Potapov did NOT get along at all, with the Metropolitan having to write sternly to the wayward Washington DC priest for disobeying orders about travel to Russia and probably plenty of other infractions of the Synod's rules about dealing with the MP.

Why is it that such people choose to divert attention from the truly GREAT spiritual figures of the time to quite minor ones ?
Brother Jose is dramatically hailed by Fr Potapov as "the last Orthodox martyr of the 20th century". However, think about the persecution that Metropolitan Philaret dealt with his entire adult life for resisting Soviet demands in Harbin, Manchuria all the way through his reign as Rocor's 3rd First Hierarch. One does not have to have a lurid and tragic end to his days to be proclaimed as a bona fide Saint. Isn't jumping out of a burning building from the second story due to a raging fire set by Chekist agents in China enough drama ? Surely his escape was PROOF of the Mother of God's care for him.

Honoring one man does not mean they are neglecting the others.

Also, how do you not know what kutia is!? Are you another one of those priestless Old Calendarists?

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Maria
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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

Post by Maria »

NotChrysostomYet wrote:
Barbara wrote:

Well, at the recent pilgrimage from Washington DC to Brother Jose's grave at Jordanville, pannikida was served upon arrival at the gravesite for Abp Leonty of Chile, who had baptized Brother Jose, Schema Abbot Clement as well as the deceased carrier of the Icon.

I wonder whether when Met Chrysostomos of Thiva, who actually painted the Icon, according to one of our esteemed members, will be likewise memorialized upon his repose ?

The writeup from the Fr Potapov-led Washington DC group makes the strongest pitch possible for Brother Jose's glorification.

"After the panihida, during the singing and reading of the akathist to the Montreal Icon at Brother Jose’s graveside, all those present ... who desired received a small bottle with oil from the lamp on Brother Jose’s grave, dirt from his gravesite, a small photograph of the chosen one of the Mother of God, and a booklet with a canon and akathist to the Montreal Icon. The pilgrims likewise all ate the kutiablessed on his grave." - https://eadiocese.org/news_171031_1.html

I don't know what kutia is. But the rest of this is going WAY too far in my unimportant opinion.
WHY are they NOT making these annual pilgrimages to the grave of incorrupt Metropolitan Philaret of New York ???
Well, we know that the Sainted Rocor Metropolitan and Fr Potapov did NOT get along at all, with the Metropolitan having to write sternly to the wayward Washington DC priest for disobeying orders about travel to Russia and probably plenty of other infractions of the Synod's rules about dealing with the MP.

Why is it that such people choose to divert attention from the truly GREAT spiritual figures of the time to quite minor ones ?
Brother Jose is dramatically hailed by Fr Potapov as "the last Orthodox martyr of the 20th century". However, think about the persecution that Metropolitan Philaret dealt with his entire adult life for resisting Soviet demands in Harbin, Manchuria all the way through his reign as Rocor's 3rd First Hierarch. One does not have to have a lurid and tragic end to his days to be proclaimed as a bona fide Saint. Isn't jumping out of a burning building from the second story due to a raging fire set by Chekist agents in China enough drama ? Surely his escape was PROOF of the Mother of God's care for him.

Honoring one man does not mean they are neglecting the others.

Also, how do you not know what kutia is!? Are you another one of those priestless Old Calendarists?

Humor us, please. I also do not know what kutia is. There were not too many native-born Russians at the OCA parish to which I belonged quite a few years ago. We were an English-speaking parish. Rare, but we were.

And the parish to which I belong now is pan-Orthodox, so the parishioners speak many different languages. Therefore, we all speak English as the common language.

What languages? English, Spanish, Russian, Arabic, French, Greek, Native American, to name only a few. Yes, we are polyglots.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Barbara
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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

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Thanks for chiming in, Maria. I realize I am ignorant of many things, but I would have thought that 'kutia' was a top 10 item on the Orthodox list from NCYet's chiding !

So tell us, NCYet, what it is. We are waiting ! I figure it sounds like some pudding or dessert ?

Anyway, I am arguing that this level of veneration is too much for a righteous man but who seems to be being MOLDED into becoming a Saint by this particular party.
And - that the level of veneration is ridiculously low for such luminaries as Met. Philaret of New York, the newly revealed to be incorrupt Bishop Constantine [Essensky] [ who hears of any pilgrimages to his tomb right nearby, after all ? ] and other remarkable Saintly figures of the Church Abroad. If Archimandrite Gerasim [Schmaltz] could be considered in Rocor, then certainly his cause would be much more powerful, I believe, than that of the current personage.
Archimandrite Gerasim was extraordinary in remaining 30 years on Spruce Island, Alaska, due to a vision of St Herman ringing the Paschal bells. This bearer of the light of pre-revolutionary Russia [ he started his monastic life at the then-famous St Tikhon of Kaluga Monastery ] suffered in so many ways.

Why does the end of the person, as I say, have to be so violent to attract the caring of people today ? Then, in the case of Brother Jose, no one - or few if any people - can say WHY he was so sadly killed ? Thus there is no way to verify that it was because of his religious testimony or belief. The fact that it was tragic certainly creates a wellspring of sympathy in all kindly-disposed observers. But that does NOT equate to an actual martyrdom.

I suspect miracles are being conjured up to fill in the gaps so that the MP-Rocor flock does not inquire too closely as to whether this was a veritable case of martyrdom --- or not.

Then, too, reading the interview done by RIA-Novosti press agency with MP-Rocor Met Hilarion, it is striking how focused the interviewer is on this topic. Surely the reporter was either primed by Fr Potapov to promote Brother Jose's glorification by asking out of the apparent blue about the prospect for the Synod approving it - or the interview was entirely set up by Fr Potapov. The interview's theme of the 10th anniversary of the Mp-Rocor union seems mere window dressing for bringing Brother Jose into the public eye in the RF and other Russia-phone countries.

[ Indeed, as of yet, I don't believe the pilgrimage article has been translated into English. Though maybe it will be done later.
Clearly, the account's release in Russian language shows the intended target audience. ]

Met Hilarion [Kapral] said in the interview that all members of the Rocor Synod have to be in agreement before any glorification would be approved. So far, he said, each member has a different opinion, which resonates as accurate and shows how divided the hierarchs are on this topic. Chief lobbyist Fr Potapov tries instead to convey a tidy image of a glorification for Brother Jose well along in progress. Toward that end, the Washington DC archpriest flattered the Synod [ in 2 places that I saw ] by taking pains to resurrect an old Epistle of the Rocor hierarchs and praising their missive.

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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Barbara wrote:

Thanks for chiming in, Maria. I realize I am ignorant of many things, but I would have thought that 'kutia' was a top 10 item on the Orthodox list from NCYet's chiding !

So tell us, NCYet, what it is. We are waiting ! I figure it sounds like some pudding or dessert ?

Anyway, I am arguing that this level of veneration is too much for a righteous man but who seems to be being MOLDED into becoming a Saint by this particular party.
And - that the level of veneration is ridiculously low for such luminaries as Met. Philaret of New York, the newly revealed to be incorrupt Bishop Constantine [Essensky] [ who hears of any pilgrimages to his tomb right nearby, after all ? ] and other remarkable Saintly figures of the Church Abroad. If Archimandrite Gerasim [Schmaltz] could be considered in Rocor, then certainly his cause would be much more powerful, I believe, than that of the current personage.
Archimandrite Gerasim was extraordinary in remaining 30 years on Spruce Island, Alaska, due to a vision of St Herman ringing the Paschal bells. This bearer of the light of pre-revolutionary Russia [ he started his monastic life at the then-famous St Tikhon of Kaluga Monastery ] suffered in so many ways.

Why does the end of the person, as I say, have to be so violent to attract the caring of people today ? Then, in the case of Brother Jose, no one - or few if any people - can say WHY he was so sadly killed ? Thus there is no way to verify that it was because of his religious testimony or belief. The fact that it was tragic certainly creates a wellspring of sympathy in all kindly-disposed observers. But that does NOT equate to an actual martyrdom.

I suspect miracles are being conjured up to fill in the gaps so that the MP-Rocor flock does not inquire too closely as to whether this was a veritable case of martyrdom --- or not.

Then, too, reading the interview done by RIA-Novosti press agency with MP-Rocor Met Hilarion, it is striking how focused the interviewer is on this topic. Surely the reporter was either primed by Fr Potapov to promote Brother Jose's glorification by asking out of the apparent blue about the prospect for the Synod approving it - or the interview was entirely set up by Fr Potapov. The interview's theme of the 10th anniversary of the Mp-Rocor union seems mere window dressing for bringing Brother Jose into the public eye in the RF and other Russia-phone countries.

[ Indeed, as of yet, I don't believe the pilgrimage article has been translated into English. Though maybe it will be done later.
Clearly, the account's release in Russian language shows the intended target audience. ]

Met Hilarion [Kapral] said in the interview that all members of the Rocor Synod have to be in agreement before any glorification would be approved. So far, he said, each member has a different opinion, which resonates as accurate and shows how divided the hierarchs are on this topic. Chief lobbyist Fr Potapov tries instead to convey a tidy image of a glorification for Brother Jose well along in progress. Toward that end, the Washington DC archpriest flattered the Synod [ in 2 places that I saw ] by taking pains to resurrect an old Epistle of the Rocor hierarchs and praising their missive.

On this topic I will ignore you from here on out, unless you can actually bring something substantial to the table. You're literally just looking for something to criticize.

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