Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

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Barbara
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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

Post by Barbara »

How is it you disagree with me on EVERYTHING !?
Here, I was about to post on the Old Believer thread a nice pic of the Arseny Morozov mansion in Paris - funny, I wrote Paris, I meant Moscow of course - just to be fair to your pro-Old Believer point of view !

Then, you did not enlighten us - assuming you know yourself - ? - what the mysterious kutia is ?

Next, do you really think encouraging people to venerate as a Saint someone who is honestly speaking controversial is really a responsible move on the part of these clergy ?
Allowing pilgrims to take earth from the grave, etc. This is all ridiculous sounding to me. That should be done for authentic Miracle workers like St John of San Francisco. Or St John of Kronstadt, whose Feast Day we recently celebrated. In short, the greats. Neither of those have tombs outdoors ; both were placed in crypts, St John of Kronstadt in the lower level of St John of Rila Convent he founded in St Petersburg. Side note : I think the latter's tomb could be much grander. I like that pre-revolutionary style of shrines, such as that of St Dimitri Rostovsky in the Yakovlev Monastery in Rostov Veliky.

I would like to see ALL the magnificent Saints like the Optina Elders have these shrines re-built. Obviously, it takes time, but that would be a wonderful thing to have the shrines restored according to old photos and drawings. Just the tomb slab is not the same as the beautiful canopy added, with hanging lampadas, etc.

I hope donations would be made for THIS purpose, to restore the grandeur of these particular Saints' shrines to the best possible facsimile of the originals.

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Barbara
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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

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Note what appears to be a gloss-over of the Skete where Jose was given the future Myrrhstreaming Icon. Fr Potapov smoothly writes :

"On his way to the Athonite port of Daphne, Jose heard an inner voice, telling him to go to the Iveron Monastery and touch his new icon to the wonderworking Portaitissa icon which has protected Mt. Athos for centuries. The icon given him by the abbot was a copy [sic - (of)] this one. Jose fulfilled this command.
http://orthochristian.com/107788.html

But as far as I can see, this Icon was not a copy like for example the Iveron Icon at the Sokolniki Church in Moscow. The latter Icon is believed to be either the original Icon sent by Mt Athos to Moscow for the Chapel in front of a Kremlin gate, or else the copy of that copy. Another is at the Valdai Iversky Monastery founded by - yes ! - Patriarch Nikon in the early 1650s. Now these were specially commissioned to exactly replicate the original Iverskaya Mother of God.

In contrast, the story we here at Euphrosynos Café have heard is that Jose's acquisition was painted by the future Met Chrysostom of Thiva. I am no expert, but think it does not imitate the original Portaitissa Icon but is a unique version of an Iverskaya Mother of God Icon. Someone may want to correct me here.

If I am right, then it's quite revealing how Fr Potapov cuts out that entire segment of his tale, which is of interest to Old Calendarists -- but embarrassing perhaps for many if not most World Orthodox. And, he tells a fib, for the reader who does not know the Matthewite provenance of the Myrrhstreaming Icon will envision a paper print copied faithfully off of the original Portaitissa Icon at the gate to the Iveron Monastery.

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Barbara
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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

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Some other accounts of this story are making the difference clearer. But really, it is a striking difference, even making allowance for the riza. Look at the shape of Her eyes, for one of many examples :

Image

Here, of course, is the Montreal Icon, painted in 1981, an Iverskaya style but nothing at all like the original :
Image

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Barbara
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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

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Intriguing question from Bro. Jose's earliest known interview. Q and A format added by Barbara to make it easier to comprehend :


Q: "Were there ever days when the Icon streamed myrrh more abundantly than at other times?”

A: “Yes, there were. For example, in Montreal, on the day of a consecration to the episcopate, the Myrrh flowed down onto the floor. That is the first time I witnessed such a thing."
http://austroca.org/excerpts-first-inte ... ox-russia/

Last edited by Maria on Mon 13 November 2017 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Barbara
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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

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Another part of this interview of interest :

Q: "From what parts of the Icon does the Myrrh flow?”

A: “It has always, always, without change, flowed from the hands of the Mother of God, and from the star which is on the Most-pure Virgin’s left shoulder. Only on occasion does it flow from the Lord Jesus Christ’s hand. The Myrrh always flows downward."

http://austroca.org/excerpts-first-inte ... ox-russia/

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Barbara
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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

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So it's clarified that the myrrh only streamed from the above mentioned places on THIS Icon.

However, the Andros fresco in the St Nicholas Monastery streamed Myrrh from Her eyes. This event - probably for the very 1st time - can be seen by all who have any interest in the story of Bro. Jose in a short clip recently put on youtube. It was produced by Fr Alexander Iwaszewicz, who accompanied Bro. Jose on that fateful trip to Hellas.

Perhaps it took 2 decades to dig up the footage, or create the video with musical accompaniment and a few subtitles ? At any rate, the video appeared in time for this 20th anniversary. {Of course, this Priest had some troubles of his own during the intervening years. Was that, one wonders, at all related to the fateful trip to Greece ? And did the shocking tears shed by the Heavenly Queen's Icon when he and Brother Jose arrived at the Greek island monastery have a subtheme of warning Fr Alexander of a serious impending problem for him in South America ??}

The occasional subtitles are only in Russian but it is easy to figure out.
If not clear, at 5:48, the Rocor pilgrims arrive at St Nicholas Monastery.
At around the 6 minute mark, the tall fresco covering one wall weeps from Her right eye [ the left eye as seen by a viewer ]. It is a most alarming thing to behold regardless, but the sight is particularly scary when the camera zeros in on the Mother of God's face and the eye.


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Maria
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Re: Glorification of José Munoz by the ROCOR-MP?

Post by Maria »

Barbara wrote:

Intriguing question from Bro. Jose's earliest known interview. Q and A format added by Barbara to make it easier to comprehend :


Q: "Were there ever days when the Icon streamed myrrh more abundantly than at other times?”

A: “Yes, there were. For example, in Montreal, on the day of a consecration to the episcopate, the Myrrh flowed down onto the floor. That is the first time I witnessed such a thing."
http://austroca.org/excerpts-first-inte ... ox-russia/

Dear Barbara,

I have edited your post above to exclude your second line of asterisks and all your "journalistic" speculations that have followed.

Brother Jose Munoz was not an ecumenist. That he would attend a Catholic consecration to the episcopate is beyond one's wildest imaginations.

I am forced to issue an official board warning as this is your second violation. Please cease and desist from posting this type of "journalistic" speculation, which is a form of gossip. E Cafe is not CNN, NBC, etc. Any more violations of this sort will result in you being placed on moderation for an entire month to help you overcome this bad habit.

Maria
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Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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