War

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Bethany
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War

Post by Bethany »

Hello all-

This is my first time posting here. Sorry my first post is such a controversial issue..

I don't know if anyone has asked this yet, but what do you all think about the impending(?) war on Iraq? Is this a good thing or bad thing? Is Bush justified? I have heard that Hussein created "subways" in Iraq, and the gov't payed for it, but they were never made into public transit systems. They are now underground storage areas and the inspectors are unable to find the entrances to these. Also, Hussein has several HUGE palaces that the inspectors can't inspect, and it's supposed that he is hiding material there. I've also heard this situation be compared to WWII- the Jews never believed that the Germans could do what they did. They believed they were safe and no one would ever attempt such attrocities. We too are in a time where whole races could be wiped out with biological weapons and the US is in a state of denial about this. Sept. 11 was just the beginning, and we must be preemptive so we can avoid future catastrophes. The US got involved too late in the fight against the Germans, and look how many people died.

Anyway, these are just some arguments I have heard. What do you guys think?? Please let me know.

Bethany

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Greetings Bethany :)

Welcome!

For my part, I'm trying to just sit back and not have much of an opinion (though some fellows who post on the Indiana List might think I have one, lol). I don't believe that I have enough real info to go on... it seems like both sides are spinning everything for their own benefit (though I guess that's to be expected). America isn't even-handed in it's treatment of the situation, but neither are the anti-war factions (various members of the EU, for instance, tried to silence some Eastern European countries, threatening that they wouldn't be granted membership in the EU if they maintained their stance). This is nothing new though, governments always do this, and I can almost understand why (though I don't think it's wholly justifiable)

I'm just waiting to see what happens. I would never participate in such a war, and I don't believe in the concept of a totally justified war, though I understand that war is sometimes necessary in a fallen world, and I pray for our soldiers and leaders who are going into battle. I'll also look to support the soldiers and their families in whatever way I can, and try to put my trust in President Bush. I'm a strong believer that, once we put someone into office, we should let him run the office as he thinks proper (as opposed to him taking polls each week to see what the masses favor). So... until it's shown that he's going way off course (e.g., what happened to Serbia in '99), I'll continue with that mindset.

I guess I have a position after all! :lol:

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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

This is how I see it. Less people would die in a war than would die at the cruel hands of Saddam, his family and regime. Saddam and his cohorts regularly rape and torture people. When 2 men tried to assasinate him as he drove past a forested highway, he killed the men, had all the trees near highways cut down and killed everyone in the town the men were from. His son is a serial rapist and there is no one that can stop him in Iraq.

Besides the fact that he will sell his weapons to those that would use them against us, the above shows a moral reason to remove him from power. It seems more moral than standing by doing nothing while people die. Being Pacifistic will not rid the world of Saddam and his progeny.

That all being said, were I president I would be less involved with the U.N. and all the International issues and would focus on scaling down the government here and turning it more into what the founding fathers imagined.

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Seraphim Reeves
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Greetings, Bethany

Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Greetings, Bethany. This is an excellent forum, and deserves new membership/posters. Thank-you for becoming involved.

You bring up a controversial issue, but it's one that affects us all (even someone like me, who does not live in the United States.) I'm a Canadian citizen, and am married to an American - thus it affects me in two different ways. On one hand, our country is extremely dependent (economically) on trade with the United States (thus what happens in American affects us tremendously.) Also, my marriage ties me to what happens in America on a familial level (besides the fact that I have blood family who also live in the United States, some of them even becoming American citizens some time ago.)

On one hand, taking the official version of things for granted, I see some justification for America "going to war." However, my problem is that I am not totally convinced of the "official version" of the situation.

Some people see folks like me as being "paranoid" or dismiss this as "conspiracy theorism", as if it is so crazy to believe that governments often lie to their citizens, or hide their ultimate motives in patriotic/alarmist garb. Truth be told, if two or more people conspire (and look up the meaning of that word if you want clarity), you have a conspiracy. And since Bush Jr. entered office (and even his very election was not a clear victory; ultimatly he was installed by courts, and not a clear victory at the polls), a conspiracy has been afoot, motivated by shady persons in the crowds he and his family runs with. Just look at his cabinet; it's a whose who list of corporate suits with interests tied to the Middle East, whether due to petroleum interests, Zionism, or both. And this conflict with Iraq ties into those two things; oil, and Zionist pretensions. And the solution to both? A "Pax Americana", that will put an end to America as a constitutional republic (though that was a process in the works for decades well before Bush Jr. entered office), and the beginning of a Washington based global Empire.

I will definatly not argue that Saddam Hussein isn't a sociopath, with plenty of innocent blood on his hands. However it is extremely niave to think that this is what the American gov't cares about. Let us just consider some upsetting facts from the U.S.'s last war with Iraq...

a) Washington was caught in lies shortly after the war. Remember the teary eyed little Kuwaiti girl that was paraded out at a press conference, and told of how Iraqi soldiers were raping and pillaging, even going into hospitals and purposesly turning over incubators and allowing infants to die on cold hard floors? Absolute nonsense. The child had ties to the Kuwaiti royal family, and was coached to peddle this nonsense for the American public. This is now a fact even recognized in the mainstream (thus you don't have to be a "paranoid nut" like me to acknowledge this.)

b) Iraq was a one time ally of America; an ally of convienience, but nonetheless "friendly." So long as Saddam fought America's proxy war with Iran (receiving American military aid) it was fine. Obviously, Uncle Same didn't care that Saddam was just as much of a human rights ignoring, sadistic dictator back then, as he is now. It just didn't factor into the equation at all. This still goes for many of America's other friends of convienience (who are/were also notorious for quelling forces for human rights and democratic change in their own countires), like Saudi Arabia or Egypt. I'm sure there are more than a few Copts who could tell you just what the Egyptian government is really like.

c) Kuwait was involved in slant drilling on it's shared border with Iraq. One could argue this in itself was actually a provocation. It's known now that Saddam honestly didn't think America would get involved if he used this as a pretext to reclaim what many Iraqi's perceived to be a historical part of their nation (since as in the case of much of the Middle East, the border lines are disputed, having been made by former Occidental occupiers from Europe, prior to their leaving the area.) Obviously, Saddam was wrong.

d) Most conspicuous of all, is just why (even if the whole argument for a war with Iraq were sound) Saddam was left in power after the first "Gulf War"? Indeed, if it was an interest in regime change that America had in mind, why was he not assinated? Or at least why did the war path stop short of Baghdad? I'm of the opinion this is so, because it turned out conditions were not yet right for Washington's ultimate plan to be put in place (and thus why, a decade later, Bush Jr. was looking for any possible reason to start this whole thing up again - in this case, by making a tenuous link between Al-Queda and Iraq...absolute nonsense if one knows anything about Wahabi Jihadism and Baathist Arab Socialism, but one Washington was sure would be lost on the American public, since as far as joe-six-pack is concerned, they're all abunch of "A-Rab raghead fundamentalists.").

There is more that can be said. Suffice it to say, that if "part I" involved so much baloney, why should we suspect any less of "part II" (the decade delayed sequel)?

In the meantime, Americans are having their rights (and the vision of their founding fathers) stolen from them. Want a good scare? Look into the so called "Patriot Act" (misnamed, unless Patriotism involves turning your Bill of Rights into toilet paper.) I'm hoping at least some Orthodox Christians are wary of the new age dawning in America, where police can make people "dissapear" without notice or reason, and where everyone is obliged (perhaps even by force if they're too curious) to simply assume the Golden-god of "the state" always acts in the interest of the common citizen (with no adversarial recourse against abuses of power.)

I'd like to say we're safe up here in Canada; however, for better or worse, our destiny is very much tied into that of the United States.

Seraphim

Serge

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Post by Serge »

Bethany, my site and blog have a lot about my views on the war. The link should be in my signature. Enjoy!

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Iraq Giving Own Forces Western Uniforms in Ploy

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Iraq Giving Own Forces Western Uniforms in Ploy

By Charles Aldinger and Will Dunham

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has ordered uniforms replicating those worn by U.S. and British troops and will issue them to paramilitary fighters who would attack Iraqi civilians and blame it on Western forces, the U.S. Central Command charged on Thursday.

A command spokesman said in a statement that U.S. intelligence had obtained the information, but refused to say how such intelligence was gathered or provide any details...

"Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has ordered the procurement of military uniforms identical down to the last detail to those of the United States and United Kingdom forces" now gathered in the Gulf, said James Wilkinson, a senior spokesman for Central Command.

"Saddam intends to issue these uniforms to 'Fedayeen Saddam' troops who would wear them when conducting reprisals against the Iraqi people so that they could pass the atrocities off as the work of the United States and the United Kingdom."

A "fact sheet" provided by Central Command, which is headquartered in Tampa, Florida, and has responsibility for any war in Iraq, said that Fedayeen Saddam, or "Men of Sacrifice," has a strength of more than 15,000 and was founded by Saddam's son, Uday, in 1994.

Many members of the organization are in their teens and recruited in areas noted for loyalty to Iraq's president, according to Central Command.

"Though not an elite force, the group does deal with unrest during an emergency," it added. "The force carries out patrols and anti-smuggling duties and is separate from the army command, reporting directly to the presidential palace."

The Pentagon has also charged that Saddam is putting military targets near civilian sites and may be planning a "scorched earth" policy of setting fire to oil fields and destroying power plants and food stocks in any conflict, then blaming that on any attackers.

"This campaign of fear and misinformation would represent the latest chapter in Saddam Hussein's long history of brutal crimes against the innocent people of Iraq," Wilkinson said.

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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

I have split the Zionist discussion into its own thread which can now be found at http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... .php?t=260

Back on topic, for or against, I think once the war is on, we need to support our troops, as the way the protestors treated returning soldiers and their families was a dispicable stain in american history.

Last edited by 尼古拉前执事 on Mon 4 July 2005 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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