More on Monophysites...

OrthodoxyOrDeath · Post by **OrthodoxyOrDeath** » Fri 27 May 2005 10:09 am

EkhristosAnesti,

Do Monophysites (or non-chalcedoneans, which ever you prefer), believe in One-Will Christ or Two?

Mor Ephrem · Post by **Mor Ephrem** » Fri 27 May 2005 3:27 pm

Deacon Nikolai wrote:
Simply put, those who do not accept the seven OEcumenical Councils, and especially those who reject some of these OEcumenical COuncils, cannot be considered Orthodox.

Sure they can, just not by you. After all, we are talking about "Orthodoxy" as you are defining it (7 = Orthodox). If we go further into your conception of "Orthodoxy", we'll probably find that even among the people who do accept seven councils, the majority of these are not what you'd consider "Orthodox" (e.g., they're Sergianists, they're in communion with heretics, etc.). So yes, people who reject councils which you regard as ecumenical can certainly be considered Orthodox...but not by you.

尼古拉前执事 · Post by **尼古拉前执事** » Fri 27 May 2005 3:38 pm

Okay, let me reword it that the Fathers of the OEcumenical Councils #4-7 would not consider Orthodox anyone who reject those councils and the canons thereof. Would you deny that my friend?

EkhristosAnesti · Post by **EkhristosAnesti** » Sat 28 May 2005 8:44 am

Orthodoxyordeath,

Do Monophysites (or non-chalcedoneans, which ever you prefer)…

If you wish to have a respectful and friendly dialogue with me, you will refer to my Church and I as Oriental Orthodox believers and I will refer to you and your Church as Eastern Orthodox believers. If you would like to have a neutral and strictly academic dialogue with me, you will refer to my Church and I as non-Chalcedonians (or miaphysites) and I will refer to you and your Church as Chalcedonians (or diophysites). If you would like to have a personal dialogue tainted by pride, obstinance, and narrow-mindedness, and thus consequently follow satan in transgressing a fundamental commandment of God by bearing false witness against my Church and I, then go ahead and call us monophysites – you will be held accountable before God for this, it is not my problem; I in response, will not stoop to your level by referring to you as a Nestorian, but I will give you the lowest and most honest label I can give: a simpleton – for this reflects the amateur Christology you follow.

….believe in One-Will Christ or Two?

This is a loaded question. It is akin to one who asks: “Do you believe God is One or Three?” The simpleton asks such a question because he blasphemously wants to reduce the being of God to a mere and simple numerical value, and does not understand that God is simultaneously one and three according to differing categories.

Likewise Christ simultaneously has One and Two wills in different senses, the former pertains to personal will, the latter pertains to natural will. Since I already discussed this issue in my response to Linus, I refer you back to my first post. If you have any further questions which I have not already addressed, please feel free to ask.

Peace.

EkhristosAnesti · Post by **EkhristosAnesti** » Sat 28 May 2005 8:50 am

Deacon Nikolai,

Okay, let me reword it that the Fathers of the OEcumenical Councils #4-7 would not consider Orthodox anyone who reject those councils and the canons thereof. Would you deny that my friend?

This is your subjective belief, and this we do not deny. I think Mor Ephrem’s point was clear, as was mine on OC.net; your subjective belief holds no validity in the objective world – and hence it serves absolutely no purpose in a dialogue of this sort.

Your submission that the Oriental Orthodox Church are not Orthodox because we do not subscribe to councils 4-7 as Ecumenical is akin to a Muslim’s submission that we are Kaffirs because we do not believe that Muhammed was a prophet. Both are subjective beliefs based on purely subjective and unjustifiable presuppositions i.e. that Muhammed was indeed a true prophet, and that councils 4-7 were indeed Ecumenical, respectively.

I’m sure you are an educated person, and thus able to understand this very clear and simple point made by Mor Ephrem and I. As I said in my response to Linus, and as I will repeat:

If the enemies of the Oriental Orthodox church have no reason or logic to support their satanic cause, then what do they have against us? If historical truth does not support their anti-Christ cause, then what do they have against us? Surely Satan has deluded them, he has shut their eyes, and closed their hearts and minds. What do they have against us? Nothing, for if God is for us, who can be against us?

God created us in His image, He endowed us with rational and reasonable souls. Let us use this God given gift to discern the truth of a matter, for what other reasonable instrument exists via which we can objectively resolve this issue: Religious experience? You will find laymen, clergy, priests, Bishops, Patriarchs, Saints, and Martyrs from both sides who have had deep spiritual connections with God, who have witnessed His love, His mysteries and His truth from the depth of their souls. This will not work. How about Miracles? You will find weeping and bleeding icons, apparitions, and other Miraculous occurings in both Church’s also. Let us therefore reason, and the truth shall set you free...

I hope I have made my point clear…

Peace.

OrthodoxyOrDeath · Post by **OrthodoxyOrDeath** » Sat 28 May 2005 12:09 pm

This is a loaded question. It is akin to one who asks: “Do you believe God is One or Three?” The simpleton asks such a question because he blasphemously wants to reduce the being of God to a mere and simple numerical value, and does not understand that God is simultaneously one and three according to differing categories.

The Holy Fathers of the Church answered this most clearly. The Monophysite/Monothelytes (modern and ancient) answered this very clearly.

But you are right, I am a simpleton. Still, I don't feel this is a loaded question at all. In fact, the answer to this question will define exactly who is who.

EkhristosAnesti · Post by **EkhristosAnesti** » Sat 28 May 2005 10:04 pm

OrthodoxyOrDeath,

The Holy Fathers of the Church answered this most clearly. The Monophysite/Monothelytes (modern and ancient) answered this very clearly.

But you are right, I am a simpleton. Still, I don't feel this is a loaded question at all. In fact, the answer to this question will define exactly who is who.

You are trying to reduce the matter to a level of simplicity which is not called for in dealing with the Mystery of Mysteries. It is a loaded question because as I stated, there are two differing categories of will; personal and natural. Since it is the personal subject that ultimately wills, and since there is one personal subject in Christ (unless you believe in the Nestorian Christ) – The Word therefore possesses One personal will. However, He also possesses two natural wills according to the continuing reality of the divine and human natures, which provide the means or capacity by which he wills, according to their perfect and unconfused union.

Christ thus “wills humanly” and “wills divinely” (two distinct and real natural wills), but ultimately He wills “personally” (It is The Word that wills).

Let’s take a Biblical example:

"He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me (will 1); nevertheless, not as I will (will 2), but as You will (will 3)."

Will 1 – Let the cup pass
Will 2 – To do the Fathers will
Will 3 –To not let the cup pass

Will 1 = natural human will
Will 2 = The personal will of The Word
Will 3 = The divine will of the Father = The divine will of The Son

In fact, this is absolutely consistent with Gospel accounts of Christ, in their entirety. The ONE personal will of The Word is ALWAYS to follow the divine will, as opposed to His human will. If you deny this, you call Christ a liar per John 6:38.

Two personal wills + Two natural wills = Nestorianism (A psychotic Christ)
One personal will + One natural will = monothelitism/monophysitism (A false Christ)
One personal will + two natural wills = Orthodoxy (The True Christ)

Which one are you?

Agreed Statement on Christology
Anglican-Oriental Orthodox International Commission
Holy Etchmiadzin, Armenia, 5-10 November 2002

“We agree that God the Word became incarnate by uniting to His divine uncreated nature with its natural will and energy, created human nature with its natural will and energy. The union of natures is natural, hypostatic, real and perfect. The natures are distinguished in our mind in thought alone. He who wills and acts is always the one hypostasis of the Logos incarnate with one personal will.”

Peace.