Opinion Piece: Why the RCC is falling apart

Discuss Religious, Moral and Ethical topics that are offtopic to other forums and that are within the boundaries of Christian morality and good taste, i.e., no pictures or videos of killings. Any politically charged material must be posted in the private Political and Social Issues forum; please PM admin for access. All rules apply. No promotion of Non-Orthodox-Christian beliefs. No baiting, flaming, or ad hominems. No polemics.
Post Reply
User avatar
Seraphim Reeves
Member
Posts: 493
Joined: Sun 27 October 2002 2:10 pm
Location: Canada

Opinion Piece: Why the RCC is falling apart

Post by Seraphim Reeves »

What's going on in Rome, and those churches submitted to her? Anyone who keeps their finger on the pulse of the RCC, or who was formerly part of her (as I was) must wonder about this. I think I may have at least part of the answers.

For the (aprox.) 1000 years that the Latin west was estranged from the Orthodox Church, all sorts of independent developments occured there. The most troubling (and perhaps explaining all of the problems it was to come into) being the teaching of the Pope as "Universal Bishop."

Vatican I ended up condifying for the Latins a process which had begun centuries earlier - the reduction of the episcopate to one true, universal Bishop with all others being his lieutenants. Aside from the question of "are Latin mysteries valid", I think it's fair to say that there has (for a long time) not truly been an episcopate in the west - if by episcopate one has the understanding of the Bishop being Christ's representative, shepherd of His flock, guardian of the traditions of the Church. Rather, this has been reduced to the Papacy itself, with the episcopal college of the RCC acting more like presbyters of this "one true universal bishop".

This situation "worked" (sort of) for some time, though it's implentation was not universal or immediate throughout the west. The so called "heresy" of Gallicanism comes to mind (the belief held well after the "great schism" by French Latins, that Oecumenical Councils were superior to Popes, and that the Council was the highest expression of the Church's mind.) I honestly believe that the influence of Gallicanism survived well into the 20th century (and perhaps explains why the RC "traditionalist movement"'s main champion, and spiritual centre, remains French - that champion being the late Marcel Lefebvre, and his priestly formation which in large part occured under French theologians) and only now has been quelled.

Then, along came Vatican II. This schitzophrenic Latin council on one hand, actually strengthened and further exalted the Papacy (going beyond Vatican I's simple teaching of the Pope being infallible when making "ex cathedra" definitions, to the point of making even the "authentic" magisterium of the Pope unquestionable - which explains once again why RC traditionalists and the RC mainstream are butting heads); but on the other hand, it also established the authority of the episcopate, underlining it in a way that had long been ignored. This was probably due to the influence of many liberal council fathers, who were seeking what they saw as a more "patristic" or ancient form of church governance - of course, so radical were there views, that the text they voted on and approved had to have explanatory notes, basically nullifying or modifying parts of the texts, added afterwards by Pope Paul VI.

Suddenly, the Bishops are being encouraged to be more independent. National episcopal conferences were now formed everywhere, or those that may have existed beforehand were being granted way more power over themselves. Many (such as that of the United States) even carry themselves like they're autonomous churches.

My honest feeling is that since the Latin tradition long made diocesan bishops impotent, these newly "liberated" bishops simply didn't know what to do with themselves. Even the ones with good will were clueless - it's like a soldier who simply does not know how to function on the battle field once their commander has been killed. This, combined with the rampant clericalism of the RCC (which basically long told laymen that they, more or less, had no role to play in the preservation of the faith, encouraging a "pay, pray, and otherwise shut up" mentality amongst them), left it open to every fad, cacadoxy, or libertine whim.

While it was once papism and some particular errors (and arguably a whole way of thinking about Christianity) which definitively set the Latins apart from the Church, I think things now are worse than ever (in terms of there being grounds for re-union.) We can add to the above problems which are perhaps just as bad - the wholesale abandonment of what was left of the legitimate Latin tradition via "liturgical reform", and a spirit of novelty and experimentation that has no time for tradition.

Sadly, the seeds of this were planted by men who would most certainly be horrified at what the RCC has become - such as Pope Pius IX (godfather of "papal infallibility" and the canonization of Rome's more grandiose claims for herself), who when confronted by appeals from Bishops (who said that where he wanted to go was "contrary to tradition") angrily replied "I am tradition!"

Indeed, papism has done the very thing that I think many Orthodox have continuously accused it of - not preserve the truth, but immortalize error. Now, even if the Pope wanted to renounce past errors, he's so painted into a corner (by his predecessors) I don't think this will be possible. It certainly will not be possible to do this without losing face.

Seraphim

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

seraphim reeves

This situation "worked" (sort of) for some time, though it's implentation was not universal or immediate throughout the west. The so called "heresy" of Gallicanism comes to mind (the belief held well after the "great schism" by French Latins, that Oecumenical Councils were superior to Popes, and that the Council was the highest expression of the Church's mind.)

I think there were some other examples as well, some of them indeed very telling how little actual control the Pope sometimes had even in the west. On example can be seen in what was happening just prior to the time that the (false) council of Ferrara-Florence was taking place:

"...Pope Martin V (1417-1431) opened the Council of Basle in 1431 and appointed Cardinal Giuliano Cesarini (1389-1444) to preside over it... Pope Martin, however, died on February 20th of the same year, leaving as his successor Pope Eugene IV (1431-1447).

The Council had announced as its program the reform of the Western Church from the Pope on down, and the settlement of the Hussite movement... However, because of poor attendance, a revolt in Bohemia, a war between Austria and Burgundy, and because ofthe prevalence of the above-mentioned program in Basle, Pope Eugene, advised by John Beaupere, the emissary of Cardinal Cesarini, issued a bull on December 18, 1431 dissolving the council... The council acted independently of the Pope, backed by the Emperor Sigismund's authority, in the interest of all the German princes and of France. In the summer of 1433, Pope Eugene convoked a council at Bologna.

Cardinal Cesarini, meanwhile, prostested the closing of the council. He did not want to postpone union with the Greeks. Since the council had already held its first solemn session, it rejected the bull of dissolution. On February 14, 1432, the council declared itself an ecumenical council over the Pope. The council ordered the Pope and cardinals, under threat of trial, to appear in Basle within three months...

After fruitless disputes concerning the place of a future council, the participants at the Council of Basle decided to first settle the Hussite quarrel and then consider the Greek 'problem.' The Byzantines were bitterly offended at being put on the same footing with the 'heretic' Hussites. Since the Council scored a major victory, by reaching an agreement with the Hussites, under pressure of the newly-crowned Emperor Sigimund, Eugene IV issued the bull Dudum sacrum on December 15, 1433, in which he recognized the Council of Basle. Nevertheless, the council becames annoyed with Eugene's decisions concerning the papacy, and reconciliation was no longer possible.

In the intervening time, Emperor John was nearing agreement with the Pope, who was taking over leadership in negotiations for union. The Pope wished to have negotiations take place in the norther Italian city of Ferrara, where the Emperor himself would attend. Deciding the location of the council and where to find adequate funding to host the Greeks created the final break between Basle and Pope Eugene. The majority had favored Basle, Avignon, or some city in Savoy; whereas, the miniority favored some Italian city. The deputies of the Greek emperor preferred the minority decision. Political considerations prompted Eugene to confirm an Italian city, for he feared that teh French might sieze the papacy. The council then declared that Pope Eugene was contumacious. he was summoned to stand trial. Pope Eugene responded by the bull Doctorus Gentium on September 18, 1437, officially transferring the council to Ferrara. Since all efforts at reconciliation collapsed, the loyal papal party withdrew from Basle and joined Pope Eugene in Ferrara.

The radical conciliarist group at Basle continued to maintain that they were the only lawfully constituted ecumenical council. Under the presidency of the only remaining cardinal, the ambitious Louis d'Allemand, Archbishop of Arles, the Basle assembly in 1439 declared: (1) a general council was superior to a Pope; (2) a Pope cannot protract or dissolve a general council, and (3) that whoever denies these propositions is a heretic. Since Pope Eugene denied the decisions of Basle, on June 25, 1439, he was deposed as 'a stiff-necked heretic and schismatic'. On November 5, 1439, they elected the widower, Duke Amadeus VIII of Savoy as Pope Felix V (1439-1449). Discontented members of that council left Basle and sided with Eugene. Among the disgruntled was Giuliano Cesarini, who would play a prominent part in the future council with the Greeks...

The Pope sent some galleys with a legate to Constantinople... four days after the arrival of the papal ships, galleys sent by the Council of Basle entered the Bosporos also. Indeed, the papal representatives deceived the Emperor when they said that there would be no representatives from Basle. They declared that the Pope had united with the council members of Basle, giving Pope Eugene 'all rule and might'...

In February of 1438, Pope Eugene issued a papal bull excommunicating all those at Basle. The Council of Basle, for its own part, declared the Council of Ferrara illegal. Finally, they demanded that all the bishops assembled in Ferrara should come to Basle, under pain of ecclesiastical punishment. Thus, there was tremendous dissention in the Western Church in the first half of the fifteenth century." - Holy Apostles Convent, The Lives of the Pillars of Orthodoxy, (Holy Apostles Convent, 1990), pp. 386-395

While it was once papism and some particular errors (and arguably a whole way of thinking about Christianity) which definitively set the Latins apart from the Church, I think things now are worse than ever (in terms of there being grounds for re-union.) We can add to the above problems which are perhaps just as bad - the wholesale abandonment of what was left of the legitimate Latin tradition via "liturgical reform", and a spirit of novelty and experimentation that has no time for tradition.

I think what we're seeing now is only the natural end to what happened a long time ago. Once you seperate yourself from the body of Christ, and choose humanism instead of christocentricity, you will inevitably fall into utter corruption (and eventually dissolve in chaos). There is no stability or unifying element in humanism, since it is inherently fickle, fallible, and corruption-attracting (=it is like a magnet that attracts corruptions and innovations to it).

Indeed, papism has done the very thing that I think many Orthodox have continuously accused it of - not preserve the truth, but immortalize error. Now, even if the Pope wanted to renounce past errors, he's so painted into a corner (by his predecessors) I don't think this will be possible. It certainly will not be possible to do this without losing face.

I agree, which is why I think discussion between Catholics and Orthodox that speak of any type of "unification" can only be harmful: it gives Catholics the sense that "uniting the two lungs of the Church, two sister Churches" is possible, when it is definately not possible. For a long time we stayed in commuion with Rome, even with it's sometimes inflated perception of itself. Then we were out of communion with Rome, though we had real hopes of uniting again. As the centuries have passed, though, this has become less and less possible. It is less possible not because the Catholics now have more innovations: the innovations are merely the outward manifestation of the inward corruption. Communion with the Catholics is less possible now--indeed, impossible now--because humanism has become part of its heart and soul. Now, I know some very good Catholics, I don't mean to imply that all Catholics are humanists and going to hell (the latter certainly isn't my call anyway). Nonetheless, all of Catholicism is permeated by this man-centered view, from the Pope down to the practical stuff (the mass performed at the local parish). There can be no unification between the two Churches, there can only be the whole-hearted admittance by one side that they were wrong all along, and that the other side was right. Hopefully when that moment comes, we Orthodox will be (spiritually) mature enough to cover over our elder brother's sin, and instead focus on his returning home from exile, happy that he is back with us again, of one mind with us. If the angels celebrate over one conversion, think how happy we should be if a billion converted! :)

Justin

User avatar
尼古拉前执事
Archon
Posts: 5118
Joined: Thu 24 October 2002 7:01 pm
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Non-Phylitist
Location: Euless, TX, United States of America
Contact:

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Good points Seraphim and Paradosis. Seraphim, I even sent your treatise to a TradLat friend and he was forced to agree that why tou said probably was part of the reason for the state of it today.

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8428
Joined: Fri 11 June 2004 8:39 pm
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: Opinion Piece: Why the RCC is falling apart

Post by Maria »

This is an excellent opinion piece which was posted 13 years ago.

Justin's response below is just as important as it mentions the effect of the Renaissance - the worship of man rather than God. It is this thinking that is so damning.

I agree, which is why I think discussion between Catholics and Orthodox that speak of any type of "unification" can only be harmful: it gives Catholics the sense that "uniting the two lungs of the Church, two sister Churches" is possible, when it is definately not possible. For a long time we stayed in commuion with Rome, even with it's sometimes inflated perception of itself. Then we were out of communion with Rome, though we had real hopes of uniting again. As the centuries have passed, though, this has become less and less possible. It is less possible not because the Catholics now have more innovations: the innovations are merely the outward manifestation of the inward corruption. Communion with the Catholics is less possible now--indeed, impossible now--because humanism has become part of its heart and soul. Now, I know some very good Catholics, I don't mean to imply that all Catholics are humanists and going to hell (the latter certainly isn't my call anyway). Nonetheless, all of Catholicism is permeated by this man-centered view, from the Pope down to the practical stuff (the mass performed at the local parish). There can be no unification between the two Churches, there can only be the whole-hearted admittance by one side that they were wrong all along, and that the other side was right. Hopefully when that moment comes, we Orthodox will be (spiritually) mature enough to cover over our elder brother's sin, and instead focus on his returning home from exile, happy that he is back with us again, of one mind with us. If the angels celebrate over one conversion, think how happy we should be if a billion converted!

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Matthew
Protoposter
Posts: 1812
Joined: Sat 21 January 2012 12:04 am

Re: Opinion Piece: Why the RCC is falling apart

Post by Matthew »

Maria wrote:

This is an excellent opinion piece which was posted 13 years ago.

Justin's response below is just as important as it mentions the effect of the Renaissance - the worship of man rather than God. It is this thinking that is so damning.

I agree, which is why I think discussion between Catholics and Orthodox that speak of any type of "unification" can only be harmful: it gives Catholics the sense that "uniting the two lungs of the Church, two sister Churches" is possible, when it is definately not possible. For a long time we stayed in commuion with Rome, even with it's sometimes inflated perception of itself. Then we were out of communion with Rome, though we had real hopes of uniting again. As the centuries have passed, though, this has become less and less possible. It is less possible not because the Catholics now have more innovations: the innovations are merely the outward manifestation of the inward corruption. Communion with the Catholics is less possible now--indeed, impossible now--because humanism has become part of its heart and soul. Now, I know some very good Catholics, I don't mean to imply that all Catholics are humanists and going to hell (the latter certainly isn't my call anyway). Nonetheless, all of Catholicism is permeated by this man-centered view, from the Pope down to the practical stuff (the mass performed at the local parish). There can be no unification between the two Churches, there can only be the whole-hearted admittance by one side that they were wrong all along, and that the other side was right. Hopefully when that moment comes, we Orthodox will be (spiritually) mature enough to cover over our elder brother's sin, and instead focus on his returning home from exile, happy that he is back with us again, of one mind with us. If the angels celebrate over one conversion, think how happy we should be if a billion converted!

I agree on Justin Kissel's summation of the illness of Rome. However, as to his comments about the "impossibility" of his brand of Orthodoxy (World Orthodoxy) uniting with Rome, he is gravely, gravely mistaken. His confidence is entirely misplaced as they are all in the lap of their masonic-agenda-following bishops. It is sad. So many men and women who love tradition and truth and holiness do not understand that they have entrusted their souls to be guided and allowed their own greater discernment and judgement to be over-ruled by men lesser than themselves. They would naturally have otherwise fled these ecumenist peddlers of "religion of love" and found the bishops who have kept the faith truly.

Post Reply