Byzantine Catholics?

[Natasha]

I can completely relate to your post. My mother

[OrthoDoc]

Natasha:

Thank you for your reply. You further the point that I was trying to convey to Anastasios who is from a non slavic back ground and a convert to the Byzantine Catholic Church.

His journey towards Orthodoxy seems to be progressing but he still doesn't quite comprehend the damage that was inflicted on our people by the Roman Catholic Church he is still part of as a Byzantine Catholic whether he choses to admit it or not. Damage that has caused hurt as well as distrust. And, you are right there is no longer a valid reason for the Unia to exist if everything the RCC is saying about Holy Orthodoxy is true and sincere.

Yet as I write this the 'Ukrainian Catholic Church not in communion with Holy Orthodoxy' is in the process of building a large cathedral and headquarter complex in Kiev. When completed it will move its headquarters there which is in the middle of Orthodoxy and hundreds of miles from 95% or more of its adherents. And its all being financed and paid for by the Knights of Columbus!
WHY? Especially if the Roman Catholic Church and its ilk have no designs on the Orthodox as they claim! Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me! Perhaps Anastasios can explian the reason behind this move.

He's right. I do not trust the Roman Catholic Church or its Uniate branch at all.

Awhile back on one of the Orthodox discussion groups an 'Eastern Catholic not in communion with Orthodoxy' asked for an Orthodox to give an HONEST answer on how we preceive them. I decided to take them up on his request and this is my reply. It's about as honest as I could get. I'm sure some will see it as being rather critical but so be it. It's the truth as I see it, and thats what they asked for. And sometimes the truth is not always pleasant -

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We Orthodox Catholics simply believe that if the Vatican and the Pope is really sincere in the current propaganda it expounds -

1) That the Orthodox Catholic and Roman Catholic Churches are SISTER Churches.

2) That we are the 'other lung' of the original Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

3) That our Sacraments are valid.

4) That our salvation is not dependent on being 'under the authority of' Rome.

5) That our church is grace filled.

Then there is no longer a reason for the Eastern Catholic Church to exist as a separate entity from its mother Church.
The Eastern Catholics should be given a choice. If they want to retain the ritual and the theology of Orthodoxy then they should return home to their family.

If it is more important for them to be 'under the authority of the Pope' and accept him as the Vicar of Christ On Earth then they should be willing to become part of the Latin Rite within the Roman Catholic Church. Why should it make any difference to them if, as they claim, all Rites are equal within the Roman Catholic Church and its sui juris appendages?

It's as simple as that. 'Put your money where your mouth is' as the saying goes.

As far as a Roman Catholic view of the Eastern Catholic Churches, most of the RC's I know are unaware of the Eastern Catholic Churches existence. Or they see it as a funny ethnic group with funny ritual. Those that are aware of its existence, see it as either some kind of second class form of Roman Catholicism or a bunch of confused people with a Roman Catholic envy ident.

In one of the Orthodox discussion groups I belong the subject of the Byzantine Rite Catholic Church came up and a ROMAN CATHOLIC replied that there should be no such thing as the Byzantine Rite. That it should be called the Byzantine WRONG because - "They are the most confused people in al of Christiandom!" His words, not mine.

As for Orthodox Catholics, let me begin by quoting my baba (grandmother) when as a kid. Once I asked why she left the Byzantine Catholic Church and returned to Orthodox Catholicism - "Dos people don know vat dey are or vat dey vant be. Dey no vant be Roamin Catolik's but dey no vant be Pravoslavnie (Orthodox) neider. Dey neider fish nor fowl."

And, that is primarily the way most Orthodox Catholics see you. Especially those of us who have either returned to Orthodoxy or are from parents or grandparents who did. There is no need for you to come here and explain who and what you are. We already know. Probably better than you do because so many of us have 'been there' and 'done that'.

We shake our heads when we read some of your posts complaining about how Rome treats you or something else Rome has done to you and then end with - 'But they promised things will change'. [Example is a married priesthood as standard for the US]. Do you know that is a perfect example of 'battered wives syndrome'? We are amazed when we read posts from some of you who are so intimidated by the Roman Catholic hierachy that you are looking to, and for, OUR BISHOPS to fight your battles for you in their consultations with the RC hierachy.

Individually we see you as nice people who were once part of us. But people who have taken all the beauty that is Orthodoxy - our ritual, our Icons, our hymns, our music, and to a certain extent our theology and turned your backs on us. A people who are confused theologically and have been searching for an identity for over 400 years now and are still confused. In just the the 62 years of my existence you have changed your identity twice and are now in the process of re-identifying yourself for the third time (Greek Catholic, Byzantine or Ukrainian Catholic <depending on your ethnic loyality> , and now "Orthodox In Communion With Rome". It is not enough that you have taken everything else... now you want to take away our very identity and present it to the Pope.

Let me end with where I began. If WE ARE everything Rome claims we are, then there is no longer a reason for your existence.

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Orthodoc

[OrthoDoc]

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[Serge]

I think the essence/energies distinction is one that is more "practically" felt; it affects everything, yet is not a slogan for either side (save perhaps when theologians, or wannabes like us, get together and talk.)

I don't see the connection between this and the differences but there has to be some reason why the two sides in theory are so alike but in practice today are not.

I guess bottom line they are a church who uses an Orthodox-type liturgy but is under the pope.

Exactly.

What we won't do however, is allow you to come on the internet and tell us you are 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome'.

Dustin answered this.

That you are just 'In Communion ' with the Pope rather than under his authority.

Agreed.

That you share exactly the same faith we do.

Agreed.

That there are only minor differences between us.

They are minor but real.

That our church is not 'Catholic'.

Is your claim to the capitalized form of the word based on the patristic writings that call the true church the Catholic Church? If so, that's understandable. But in modern English, 'Catholic' with a big C means 'under the Pope', which you most vehemently are not. OTOH, Dustin and I agree with you that BCs are not 'Orthodox' (big O).

I certainly don't condone it but as some one who is aware of the insults, hardships, court cases, my grandparents had to suffer all because they wanted to return to the faith of their ancestors which was, and is, the Orthodox Catholic faith. A faith they didn't have the freedom to belong to while they were in Europe. And even had to suffer to establish here in America.

But when the Communists lost control, in 1968 briefly in Slovakia and in 1991 in Transcarpathian Ukraine, all the Byzantine Catholics forced into the state-tolerated Orthodox churches went back to the Pope, of their own free will.

My mother

[Cyril]

While this topic is fascinating, it seems to have nothing to do with ROCOR or the churches affiliated with it. Why not move this conversation to Miscellaneous Issues?

Cyril, co-moderator

[Anastasios]

Dear Orthodoc,

It's interesting that I just read the Pospielovsky reading you cited last night for my Church history class.

I will boil down my points to 2:

1) Your long post of the evils of the Unia, etc., has nothing to do with my post, which said that Orthodox will win Byzantine Catholics over to Orthodoxy by treating them with love; I already agree and have for a long time that the Unia was wrong and unnecessary.

2) I question your "right" to feel "hurt" on a Christian level because a) this stuff happened to your grandparents, not you, b) Orthodox assisted political powers in doing the same types of things to Catholics, c) what it all boils down to is the Gospel injuction to love and forgive those who hate you and wrong you. You have every right on a human level to be cautious of the Vatican and not to trust it, but when you shoot this stuff at Catholics about how 300 years ago this evil thing happened to your ancestors, and 100 years ago this evil thing happened to your ancestors, and then to top it off you ignore the evils that the Orthodox side participated in*, you only alienate most of them (except a select few who want to embrace Orthodoxy because they hate the Catholic Church). So in the end you are going against Christ's command to love and forgive.

anastasios

(* such as the forced liquidation of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church by the Soviets with Russian Orthodox cooperation in 1946, and Patriarch Alexy's offensive statement made recently where he demands that people stop denying the "legality" of that decision [as if it was really legal ever!]).

[Anastasios]

I will say that I agree with Orthodoc that there is no point in moving the headquarters of the Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine to Kyiv.

As far as "why stay Greek Catholic" the obvious answer is that it's because they believe in Papal primacy; most Greek Catholics do see it that way. It is the small, vocal minority who think of themselves as "Orthodox in communion with Rome". Their position is illogical, I agree. If the whole point you are Byz. Cath. is because of the Pope, then you don't listen to him, and refuse to acknowledge his authority, I have to wonder, why are you there??

Natasha, one resource written from a Greek Catholic point of view that will EXPLAIN to you why Greek Catholics see themselves the way they do is History of the Church in Carpathian Rus' by Athanasius Pekar. It is biased towards Greek Catholics which is the whole reason I am suggesting it, SINCE you asked "why do THEY feel the way they do". It is way too expensive to purchase; inquire at your local library for interlibrary loan proceedures. I will say that even as a Greek Catholic I find that his arguments are not convincing so please don't think that I am trying to secretly push uniatism on you!! (remember, I want to go Orthodox).

anastasios