Congregational Singing

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OrthodoxyOrDeath

Congregational Singing

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

I realize this is sensitive, but I have some sincere questions about this phenomenon...

Is congregational singing done in any of the old countries that anyone knows?

Which new-calendar churches/bishops are pushing this?

Is there some program passed out to everyone each time to instruct them what to sing and how to sing it?

Anastasios, do you have any background on this?

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Er... what's wrong with congregational singing? I'm confused. If anything, I'd think that you would be asking when people started that innovation of only choirs singing... :)

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Er... what's wrong with congregational singing?

Er...I don't believe I said there was anything wrong. :)

If anything, I'd think that you would be asking when people started that innovation of only choirs singing...

...and I don't believe I said it was an innovation.

But it is a fact, as far as I know, that this pratice of congregational singing has not been practiced anywhere since before the First Ecumenical Council.

So in all of the traditional practices that can be "brought back" (even really good ones such as Confession in the GOA), I guess I am just wondering why, through research and history books (and not what was handed down to them), they reached so far back to bring this one to the front?

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Good points :) Sorry for jumping to conclusions. I know next to nothing about liturgical studies, but FWIW (speaking of post-Nicene practices), I remember reading that for some necessary reason, Saint Ambrose of Milan locked himself and his congregation in their Church, and then taught them antiphonal singing to keep their minds occupied. I suppose I just always assumed that this meant the entire congregation sang as he was teaching them... perhaps I've misunderstood?

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Justin,

I guess I have to admit I am a little suspicious of it. It seems to me allot can be done to destroy current tradition by invoking something "even more traditional". If one reaches far back enough, I suppose almost every practice can be seen as a sort of innovation. For instance, yes the priests vestments, the sanctuary, censors, ect go back into the old testament, but they were not practiced exactly like we do today. So in effect, someone can come along and say, well, you know folks, these things are really not as traditional as such and such, so we are going to change this and that, and the other thing. Before you know it, you could have something totally unrecognizable, and even worse, you will have broke people from having an inherent sense of what they know as tradition and gotten them used to "innovation" in the name of tradition. Sounds wierd I know.

On the other hand, I don't think there is anything wrong with everyone singing, in fact, I think it is a great thing! There are many parts of Greek services where everyone sings and I always try to sing softly to myself during service.

For this thread though, I am just trying to find out how and why this is happening in the new-calendar churches as a sort of "movement".

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

I am in total agreement with you on this. I think that an Orthodox life (and purity of faith) involves obedience, and that means holding to the faith delivered to us, not reading and doing archaeological digs to find out what "true faith" we should hold (not that I'm against reading or archaeology!) As you said, sometimes it's more Orthodox to use what was an "innovation" 600 years ago, than to study what was done 1,600 years ago and then practice that older way. Of course, that brings up the question of what recent things might be tomorrow's sacred traditions, but again I find that I'm leading your thread astray! Hopefully someone who knows what they're talking about (ie. not me) can respond... :)

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Aristokles
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Post by Aristokles »

Excuse me, please, for rambling a bit on this interesting topic.
When reading the canons wherein reference is made to "singers" I assumed that organized choral-type singing was an ancient practise.
I am not certain congregational singing is an Old/New Calendar parish thing at all.
Apparently congregational singing is the traditional norm in the Carpatho-Russian tradition. Every parish, those either Julian or "Revised" Julian, I have ever been in preserves this. Indeed, my pew copy of the Divine Liturgy is fully scored and everyone sings.
Those ACROD parishes large enough or motivated enough to have an organized choir still have the entire congregation singing.
And in my home GOA parish, with a choir, many of us old-timers still sing as well, accompanying the choir, with the priest's encouragement.

I did say I'd be rambling...:lol:

Demetri

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