Toll houses

[Incognito1583]

And the quotes of the God-bearing Fathers(Holy Fathers) don't? There have been plenty of references to them and their explanations. Even the death of St. Theodora is quite detailed.

That statement shows you haven't even read Azkoul and Lazar's books, because they correct the error of the Saint Theodora story as explained in Father Seraphim's book. I can't help you people if you refuse to study.

Have you read the posts, here, from the beginning?

I read the minutes of the ROCA bishops which was ludicrous and carries no authority. They are only a small segment of Orthodox Christianity.

You haven't even read Fr. Seraphim's book.

Now you're playing clarivoyant again. I remember you. You're the person who once claimed I didn't even know who Father Seraphim was. And when I asked for a post where I said this, you never provided it. The fact of the matter is that you have not read Azkoul and Archbishop Lazar's books. The reason I know this is because you still believe in the toll houses.

Yes, I've read "The Soul After Death" a couple or more times many years ago.

Quotes from Orthodox saints have been sited and yet all you do is go back to bashing Fr. Seraphim. You exalt Puhalo and Azkoul who are OCA and stomp on legitimate Orthodox teachings.

I don't look at what church they attend, but what their level of schoalrship is. Father Seraphim didn't give full quotes. He used bad translations, and suppressed material that militates against his theory. I don't know of any real Orthodox scholar who believes in the toll houses. And Azkoul is a traditionalist by the way.

The toll-houses are a dim expression of the judgement we will face. It will not be so literal because what we will face will be beyond human words. It will be worse.

I ditto Archbishop Lazar's words I stated before. And you people, give the devil too much credit. You think God is so sadistic that He puts us through this horrible ordeal of life, only to have to ascend through twenty toll house stations at death to be left at the mercy of the demons? I feel so sorry for you.

[Incognito1583]

Toll House teaching is classic Gnostic spiritual cosmology, and is all so common among reilgions emanating from ancient Chaldea and Egypt. Indeed, the entire myth of the Aerial Toll Houses comes from the Gnostic/pagan sources. Many of these Gnostic writings and other pseudo-epigraphica were taken seriously by elements in Russia. For example, the tale of "The Descent of the Virgin Mary into Hell," which is simply a re-write of the Babylonian myth of the descent of the goddess Iannana into Hell, was often quoted in Russia.
..Hopefully, all Christian people will eventually learn to disregard these Gnostic/pagan fables and turn to the Holy Scripture as the touchstone of faith. Put the notion of these imaginary aerial toll house and demonic judgments out of your mind completely. Such stories can only be propagated by a diseased mind, and one that assimilated little from the Gospels and the holy fathers.

[joasia]

Inco wrote:

Now you're playing clarivoyant again. I remember you. You're the person who once claimed I didn't even know who Father Seraphim was.

That was Brother Jose.

[Incognito1583]

Remember, when talking about the thrice deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, we are talking about a man who is in the OCA and believes the MP has grace . . . so, what's your point?

Without any prudence or restraint, you so freely said he was deposed thrice. These kind of overstaments and scandals are rampant in Orthodoxy and Christianity today where people thrive on lies, slanders, gossip and half-truths. I have seen no evidence he was deposed three times. He was deposed once by ROCA.

[joasia]

Inco wrote:

The Descent of the Virgin Mary into Hell...

Why don't you provide the sources when you make such comments? Orthodoxy does not support that. And you bring this up right on the eve of the beginning of the fast? Have you no decency? Have some respect for the Theotokos. Why do you say such things?

[Incognito1583]

Inco wrote:

The Descent of the Virgin Mary into Hell...

Why don't you provide the sources when you make such comments? Orthodoxy does not support that. And you bring this up right on the eve of the beginning of the fast? Have you no decency? Have some respect for the Theotokos. Why do you say such things?

My point was that some Orthodox have incorporated pagan concepts. The story of the Descent of the Virgin Mary into Hell, is an example of that.

This is what I said:

"For example, the tale of "The Descent of the Virgin Mary into Hell," which is simply a re-write of the Babylonian myth of the descent of the goddess Iannana into Hell, was often quoted in Russia."

It is precisely because I DO respect the Thetotokos that I resist these kind of errors that degrade her.

And who cares about the fast? Orthodoxy isn't compartmentalized. Orthodoxy is not supposed to be taken seriously only on fasts. It is a 24/7 365 days a year thing.

[Incognito1583]

Joasia, I think you have a good understanding and grasp of Orthodoxy.

Father Seraphim might have been right about the toll houses. It is possible Archbishop Lazar and Azkoul were influenced by western understanding. I know of at least a couple problems with their argumentation. First, they commit the fallacy of "false cause" in that they assume that because two systems co-existed (in this case Orthodox and Gnosticism), or existed in the same area, one borrowed from the other (Orthodoxy borrowed from Gnosticism, or Father Seraphim borrowed from Gnosticism). This is a fallacy because it cannot be proven. Just because A comes before B, it does not mean A is the CAUSE of B.

There is no proof Gnosticism is the CAUSE of Father Seraphim's teaching.

Second, they commit the genetic fallacy. This fallacy is commited when a person attacks the source of the idea, instead of dealing with the idea itself. How do they know that just because the Gnostics held a similar view (which is really stretching), that the idea is even false?

They also call Father Seraphim a Gnostic, which is slander and cannot be shown. This is fallacious because first, Father Seraphim was Orthodox. He never endorsed the heresy of Gnosticism. Second, it would be like calling Protestants, Orthodox just because they believe in the Trinity.

I also agree with you about rejecting most of Protestant scholarship.

I think you have a good grasp of Orthodox tradition, way, and life. Just take what people like me say with a grain of salt.