Pietism in Orthodox worship?

[GOCPriestMark]

I come back with my topic : pietism is Orthodox worship...

As regards prostrations i.e great metany, the issue consisits in knowing which is the meaning of prostration... I think prostration or kneeling squares with repentance (asking forgiveness). So I really do not understand why making a prostration during a weekday liturgy before the Lord's prayer, or before communion when the priest comes with the Holy Gifts...

Prostrations also have to do with worship; 'O come let us worship and fall down ..', and prayer; 'Again and again on bended knee . .'.

These moments, acccording to my modest opinion, are linked with resurrection or eschatology, so they would require standing... A professor at the Saint Serge Orthodox institute in Paris wrote an interesting essay (in French) about kneeling. He advocated for no kneeling in any liturgy of Saint John, Saint Basil, Saint James etc excepted the Pre sanctified liturgy because any liturgy is exchatological... I agree with him on this point...

Now there's a problem, listening to the liturgical reformists from that 'institute in Paris' which spreads 'renovationism' imported from Russia. They also would have you not fast at all from Pascha to Penetecost, (much too long a time for us passionate people).

[Jean-Serge]

Thank you for this explanations.

Prostration also means prayer. The strange thing is that a Serbian priest told me it was not correct to make metany during the Trisagion at the liturgy (uncanonical, but he could not remember which canon) and also uncorrect to make a metany during the "Little entrance", at the Axion esti (Dostojno est...). And I also hear voice saying little metanies are forbidden on Sunday even if I can see them making it

This essay from the Saint Serge's professor is very good. In fact, it is better to read a text without any bias. And this one is very good even if it is written by a professor in Saint Serge. All his argument are patristical and canonical and simply confirms something we all know : we ought not to kneel on Sunday. Nobfody knowing canons or the Fathers would defend the opposite opinion (kneeling on Sunday)

I cannot translate it because it has 63 pages but for those who can read French, this is the link (interesting and very orthodox essay) :

http://orthodoxe.free.fr/files/Agenouillement.pdf

I must explain that I understand orthodoxy as "right praise". That is why I am so interested in liturgical forms and habits. I am all the more worry since we all know foreign influences were received from catholicism in theology and other fields... Another example ; Greek went to Moldavia and could see people praying kneeling and joining their hands as catholic used to do. If this goes on, 200 hundred year latter, we would think this is traditionnal orthodox prayer whereas it is not.

That is why I soon as I can afford it, I will try to visit Mount Athos. or Saint Sabbas monastery... The true tradition must have been kept in some,monastic places...

[Kybihetz21]

Jean Serge:

I really don’t have time for wasteful online arguments, but I certainly can tell you that you got me wrong in the Conservatism aspect of your comments since I am not one of those that ignore Church Tradition (some Russian/Slavic practices belong to the LOCAL traditions of those respective Churches, and are not necessarily WRONG, just different). There will be different traditions in different places, so do not expect to find THE tradition in Athos, Palestine, or Russia ...

PS I have only knelt on Sundays on those days prescribed, and actually I will argue that what is meant is to prostrate not kneel but like I mentioned I really don’t have time to be going on and on in a forum so most of the time I just read and refrain from making comments. Read the article I mentioned from the Jordanville Prayer Book, and you will find it most useful.

[GOCPriestMark]

Yes, everyone knows that there are no prostrations on Sundays, except when the Cross is in the middle (during it's Universal Exaltation and the occasions where September 14th falls on a Sunday). But to "advocate(d) for no 'kneeling' in any liturgy of Saint John, Saint Basil, Saint James etc" during the weekdays is against Orthodox practice.
Eschatological he says? Of all Holy Scripture what writing is more eschatological than the Apocalypse of St. John? The Holy Theologian says: "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". Wouldn't "the Lord's day" be Sunday? And "being in the Spirit" on Sunday he could well have been in the Liturgy, especially considering how much of our worship liturgy conforms to things in this revelation. And so, seven verses later he says; "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead." Do you see how this is an appropriate reaction to the appearance of God?
In the fifth chapter we see; "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." We all well know that our incense is our prayers offered to God, but here we see again that falling down is part of worship also. The "four and twenty elders" are recorded another half-dozen times falling down and worshiping.
St. John falls down before an angel also and was told not to; "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God". St. John does the same thing again towards the angel as is recorded in the twenty-second chapter. This shows that this is an appropriate response of worship at certain times. (Even if St. John mistook the angel for God, he was responding to an awesome being appearing to him, so it's not repentance, but worship.) Also, it is clear in the Apocalypse that falling down to worship is appropriate worship for God, where? In the Kingdom of Heaven! How much more 'eschatological' can it be than that?
I don't expect anyone to take my word for it. When God appears at the dread Second Coming we shall all see who falls on their face before Him. So then, those who want to get in some practice before hand will fall down when God is manifest during the Liturgy.
Hopefully now you can see how 'falling down' is the norm for worship at certain times and only on Sunday do we restrain ourselves in honour of the Resurrection, hence only the small bows are done. We in this generation are so lazy and afraid to 'lower' ourselves through the practice of prostrations. The believe the source of it is pride.
PS. Don't forget that each prostration has two motions, one down and one up; as in life, when we fall we are to get up again; death and resurrection. And so to an Orthodox Christian all things can be joyous and even a prostration can teach and honour the resurrection.

[spiridon]

Very well written Father Mark, and i hope you all are doing well in canada as we approach Holy Week.............

[Jean-Serge]

Good elements indeed Father Mark... Have you read the essay I suggested? I will be back after Easter with this theme. I have new elements from Saint Basil's canons