ROCOR-L UNANIMOUSLY VOTES TO UNITE WITH MP!

DIscussion and News concerning Orthodox Churches in communion with those who have fallen into the heresies of Ecumenism, Renovationism, Sergianism, and Modernism, or those Traditional Orthodox Churches who are now involved with Name-Worshiping, or vagante jurisdictions. All Forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


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sue57
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Post by sue57 »

Katya,
Thank you for posting this.
I would NEVER presume to assume anything about the spiritual state of any of the moderators of this board; it is not for me to judge their spiritual struggles, however, I will say that I find Vladimir Moss to be inconsistent with all Christian values. I just want to make a few (very) brief comments:

  1. The delegate from out parish is vehemently anti-MP. If the conference was "rigged," why was he selected?

  2. It is true that the nature of ecumenism has become even more radical; to the point of embracing traditons outside of Christianity. I will not disagree with this, [/i]however, the nature of Orthodox participation in the WCC is NOT static and unchanging. Compared to twenty years ago, the Orthodox participation has become more vocal and critical of the errors embraced by the WCC. If anything, reconciliation might strengthn the MP's position, backed by the "traditionist" presence of ROCOR.

Actually, I don't want to take the time to debate the positions of Mr. Moss, because if you follow any of this public statements, debate is not possible. And because I find this amusing, I want to include my two cents. Vladimir Moss, a product of Oxford and the English Public (private) School system, runs a b&b in Woking, the most verdant, lush and richest part of England's green and pleasant land! And he wants to dictate Orthodox spirituality to Russia?? Am I the only one who sees a vague, shall we say, irony in this?

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尼古拉前执事
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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Some interesting notes from http://russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/e ... rday6.html

His Grace Bishop Evtikhii of Ishim and Siberia read the final version of the unanimously-approved resolution (129 delegates voted for, 6 against)

How can 6 voting against it mean it was unanimously approved?

His Grace Bishop Gabriel stated that the archpastors and pastors of ROCOR must first of all tend to their flock and do everything possible to avoid division. He reminded everyone that a significant part of the flock, including monastics, feels that the ROCOR is moving too fast to reconcile.

His Grace Bishop Agathangel of Odessa said that the ROC/MP and the ROCOR are institutions that operate differently. The Hierarchies of the ROC/MP continue to confess Sergianism and ecumenism. We cannot submit to their leadership or include language in the resolution that the "Act on Canonical Communion" will be adopted.

Bishop Agathangel from experience, living in Russia, would know exactly how the MP really works.

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sue57
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Post by sue57 »

Deacon Nikolai,
The statements you posted do indeed have relevance in the debate, and yes, Bishop Agathangel's comments are true as far as to the differences between ROC/ROCOR, but these comments are coming from within. What is troubling is the vehemence of Moss, etc. Yesterday, a link was even posted to that poor madman, "Brother" Nathaniel's site. Thankfully, you, I believe had the good sense to remove it.

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Priest Siluan
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Post by Priest Siluan »

Νικολάος Διάκ wrote:

Some interesting notes from http://russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/e ... rday6.html

His Grace Bishop Evtikhii of Ishim and Siberia read the final version of the unanimously-approved resolution (129 delegates voted for, 6 against)

How can 6 voting against it mean it was unanimously approved?

His Grace Bishop Gabriel stated that the archpastors and pastors of ROCOR must first of all tend to their flock and do everything possible to avoid division. He reminded everyone that a significant part of the flock, including monastics, feels that the ROCOR is moving too fast to reconcile.

His Grace Bishop Agathangel of Odessa said that the ROC/MP and the ROCOR are institutions that operate differently. The Hierarchies of the ROC/MP continue to confess Sergianism and ecumenism. We cannot submit to their leadership or include language in the resolution that the "Act on Canonical Communion" will be adopted.

Bishop Agathangel from experience, living in Russia, would know exactly how the MP really works.

Dear Father Nikolai:

I agree with you, some superb "Russian" Americans living thousands of Kilometers from Russia believe to know the reality of Russia better than the Russian live there. But this is not new it was the reason why our bishops decided to break up with ROCOR in the past.

With love in Christ

Priest Siluan

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And now for the Shaw response

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

XPICTOC BOCKPECE!

I returned from the Sobor late last night, and since I don't have a laptop computer I did not see anything on the internet for the past week.

Concerning the Resolution that was passed on Thursday, there was surprisingly little disagreement over it.

During the night going into Thursday, I got up and wrote, on the back of an envelope, what came into my head as a suggestion towards the Resolution.

I used the same 5 points as I do for most of my sermons: an introduction (whose content was obvious enough, dictated by the circumstances), then 3 points:

1) There should be reconciliation in the Russian Church,

2) Based strictly on the Canons, Rules and Dogmas of the Orthodox Church,

3) And that all should pray for this.

Conclusion: based on the closing words of the last Paschal Stichera: "And therefore let us say, brethren, to those that hate us: Let us forgive all through the Resurrection, and thus let us cry out: Christ is risen from the dead..."

Then, in the morning, before and after Liturgy, I showed what I had written on the back of that envelope to several of my colleagues including Fr. Alexander Lebedeff, who, it turned out, working overnight with several others had come up with almost the same text, and with the same ending.

The text was then presented to the whole Sobor, and discussion of it began.

After various suggestions and amendments to the first paragraph (the introduction), that paragraph alone was put to the vote: Accepted or not?

So far as I noticed, the 6 votes "against" were the ones to the first paragraph. In fact, I only thought I saw 3 hands raised "against".

The rest of the text was edited and then adopted, paragraph by paragraph. I did not think I saw any hands raised "against" anything further along.

Each time, they would first ask a show of hands "for", then "against", then for any "abstentions". I did not think I saw any abstentions.

After the first draft was corrected, and the second draft presented, it was again dissected phrase by phrase and even word by word.

The first two drafts were handed out, but collected again after being emended, so that no one would circulate texts that had not been adopted by the Sobor.

The third and final draft was read and also handed out. Some people were expecting a third round of corrections and a final vote to approve the text as a whole, but that was not done.

If there had been that final vote on the document as a whole, it would be easier to say whether or not anyone really voted against the complete Resolution.
As things stand, we only know that there were a few partial objections.

As to the remarks of Eugene Magerovsky that the text, as adopted by the Sobor, was "against union", I think that simply shows a misunderstanding of terms that had finally been set straight.

What is outlined in the Resolution, is what had been planned all along. The only real dispute was over terminology, style, choice of words.

The paragraph against participation in the WCC is taken quite seriously by the MP, according to an official announcement on their websites, mentioning opposition to the WCC from within the MP itself.

The Divine Liturgy on Friday morning after the Resolution had passed, was wonderfully joyous and really Paschal.

In Christ Fr. John R. Shaw

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Post by pjhatala »

1). We, the participants of the IV All-Diaspora Council, having gathered in the God-preserved city of San Francisco, in the blessed presence of the Protectress of the Russian Diaspora, the Kursk-Root Icon of the Mother of God, and the holy relics of Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco, in trembling recognition of the duty laid upon us, in obedience to our Archpastor, Christ, with complete trust and love of the pastors and laity to our First Hierarch, His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus, and the Council of Bishops, attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we shall submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming Council of Bishops.

2). We archpastors, pastors and laymen, members of the IV All-Diaspora Council, unanimously express our resoluteness to heal the wounds of division within the Russian Church—between her parts in the Fatherland and abroad. Our Paschal joy is joined by the great hope that in the appropriate time, the unity of the Russian Church will be restored upon the foundation of the Truth of Christ, opening for us the possibility to serve together and to commune from one Chalice.

Paragraphs 1 and 2
Are accepted UNANIMOUSLY

3). Hearing the lectures read at the Council, the reports made by the Commission on negotiations with the corresponding Commission of the Moscow Patriarchate, and the various points of view expressed during the discussions, we express our conciliar consent that it is necessary to confirm the canonical status of the Russian Church Abroad for the future as a self-governing part of the Local Russian Church, in accordance with the Regulations of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia currently in force.

Paragraph 3.
FOR - 116 delegates
AGAINST - 2 delegates
ABSTAINED - 6 delegates

4). From discussions at the Council it is apparent that the participation of the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate in the World Council of Churches evokes confusion among our clergy and flock. With heartfelt pain we ask the hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate to heed the plea of our flock to expediently remove this temptation.

Paragraph 4.
FOR - 123 delegates
AGAINST - anybody (0)
ABSTAINED- 1 delegate

5). We hope that the forthcoming Local Council of One Russian Church will settle remaining unresolved church problems.

Paragraph 5.
FOR - 117 delegates
AGAINST - 3 delegates
ABSTAINED - 4 delegates

6). Bowing down before the podvig [spiritual feats] of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia, glorified both by the Russian Church Abroad and by the Russian Church in the Fatherland, we see within them the spiritual bridge which rises above the abyss of the lethal division in the Russian Church and makes possible the restoration of that unity which is desired by all.

7). we, the members of the IV All-Diaspora Council, address our brothers and sisters in the faith in our renascent Homeland with the Paschal hymns: "Pascha! Let us embrace each other joyously!"

Paragraphs 6 and 7.
Are accepted UNANIMOUSLY

http://www.sobor2006.com/more.php?id=106_0_1_0_M

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What is Truth?

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Wow, every story says something different. First the ROCOR-L announces it was approved unanimously, then Fr John says there was no vote on the 3rd & final document and then the story Peter posted with a number of dissenters. Which is the truth?

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