What does the Incarnate Son of God Know?

[AndyHolland]

For a far more definitive interpretation, please see St. John Chrysostom's Homily LXXVII on St. Matthew's Gospel.

There is not an intimation of dishonesty by St. John's very carefully chosen words as there is in the above quote. He seems to be perplexed as to the words neither the Son, but states:

And ye indeed say that ye know even His substance, but that the Son not even the day, the Son, who is always in the bosom of the Father; and yet His substance is much greater than the days, even infinitely greater. How then, while assigning to yourselves the greater things, do you not allow even the less to the Son, “in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.”But neither do you know what God is in His substance, though ten thousand times ye talk thus madly, neither is the Son ignorant of the day, but is even in full certainty thereof.

For this cause, I say, when He had told all things, both the times and the seasons,....

St. John is expressing a personal opinion in this sermon. To inquire about certain things is indeed madness.

You can find a copy of St. John's sermons on a Roman Catholic website - something the RC's have gotten right - isn't that commendable?

andy holland
sinner

[GOCPriestMark]

First, I hope you meant that the "spurious quote" was "spurious", (unknown, of illegitimate origin), only to you. Blessed Theophylact is indeed a saint and a well known Orthodox commentator on Holy Scripture.

Second, since God the Word is one person He indeed knows all that the Father knows, including the time of the End even before creation was begun. So then would you say that His Divinity knew, but His humanity did not? Please show us where you have found this in the Holy Fathers.

Thirdly, since Blessed Theophylact based his commentary on St. John Chrysostom I took a look there and he says the same thing. He even asks a good question for you to contemplate; If our Lord was then ignorant of it "when will He know it?"

[AndyHolland]

What the Truth has spoken that for truth I hold. '

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Jesus said plainly "neither the Son", therefore "neither the Son." The Gospel is true, let all others be liars!

Remember the example of the two Sons of Noah who covered their father's nakedness? They backed into the tent. They knew he was naked but had no knowledge of his nakedness. They worked within a definite limit (law - humility - justice - mercy) placing a cloth over their father, backing into the tent.

To indicate "we are in the know" and the disciples were told something different is gnosticism. How could a person do such a thing?

Even if it were true (and it is NOT) - don't they understand the damage that can be caused by intimating the Truth lied? Yet fully human fully divine as a mystery is far easier to reconcile. Jesus Truly Died and Arose from the dead - therefore, all things are possible including a lack of definitive knowledge - yet the Word does not need absolute knowledge to operate in accordance with the will of the Father.

We must also be cognizant of the fact that St. John's sermon posed these things as rhetorical questions - not necessarily answers. He also used the "I" word which is indicative of personal opinion.

Frankly, if I had to believe what Theophylact said in order to be Orthodox, I'd be out of the church. I just cannot bring myself to believe Jesus lied to the fishermen who are revealed as all wise.

Christ is Risen!

andy holland
sinner

[AndyHolland]

First, I hope you meant that the "spurious quote" was "spurious", (unknown, of illegitimate origin), only to you. Blessed Theophylact is indeed a saint and a well known Orthodox commentator on Holy Scripture.

Nope I meant it as spurious - he is in error. He goes way beyond anything St. John said (who used open questions). Also, I have not found his feast day or anything of the like - he was an Archbishop.

Second, since God the Word is one person He indeed knows all that the Father knows, including the time of the End even before creation was begun. So then would you say that His Divinity knew, but His humanity did not? Please show us where you have found this in the Holy Fathers.

The fathers are not fully God - read the Gospels as St. John bids us to study. See below.

Thirdly, since Blessed Theophylact based his commentary on St. John Chrysostom I took a look there and he says the same thing. He even asks a good question for you to contemplate; If our Lord was then ignorant of it "when will He know it?"

To say Jesus did not know is consistent with the Gospel and divine humility and condecension. What about 'handle me for I am meek and lowly' - he indicates lowly - he is one of us - limited as a man is limited.

Does Jesus know the value of Pi to the last decimal place? The Incarnate Son has a finite brain just as he has a finite heart - yet infinite access to the mind of the Father to delve deeply, and infinite capacity to restart the heart (Christ is Risen).

Yet he speaks the wind and waves to calm by His infinite Word - as man!

How would Jesus express the hour - in terms of time of day - what about the other side of the Earth? Are the hours reconciled in celestial, terrestial or atomic terms (modern definition). Does he indicate hours as passing in days or in tropical or astronomical years? Would he do so in 3600 second increments?

It is foolishness to say he knows the hour. He does not know nor is it knowable by anyone in the Universe - only the Father knows such details.
How would God the Son express such a value to precession?

And if he cannot know to absolute precession except to access the Father, then he when he says he does not know - believe Him - not Theophylact or even Chrysostom.

Jesus could ask the Father to tell him Pi and he could recite it forever. It would be a waste of the Word. Human logic obviates the nonsense question.

Jesus knows the hour eternally in the Father, for He and the Father are One AND He does not lie when he says the Son does not know. Jesus really did die on the cross - they really pierced his side. Fully Human, Fully Divine. Its a mystery. The "definite limit" is a mystery - but it is real, Jesus died and arose. The Son did not know the hour. Its all part of the Incarnation - It is a foolish question. You might as well ask 'did not Jesus die on the cross?' Its all part of the Incarnation.

The Word obeys the Father and is about the Father's business - he does not need to know what goes on on the dark side of the moon. Theophylact's arguments, and even St. Johns don't hold water in this case.

Jesus will come to judge the Earth and the people with His Truth (not deception).

"What is truth" is the question demons ask - "Who is Truth" is for Christians. What the Truth has spoken - that for Truth I hold.

andy holland
sinner

P.S. Bearing False witness is a sin - even when hiding something from children as the one you call blessed has indicated. This is how by the Holy Spirit we know he is in error - we who have children know by our consciences that convict us the moment we do as Theophylact indicated.

[GOCPriestMark]

Christ is Risen!

Well AndyHolland, (Is Holland your family name or where you live?), I'll make one more attempt, but first I would like to thank you for being the impetus for my undertaking of much edifying reading today.

I began by collecting more qoutes from the Holy Fathers, but for the sake of those who don't like long posts here, I will restrict myself to using links.

What caught my eye in your post and made me want to reply had little to do with the subject of the original news article, therefore I have taken the liberty to start a new topic. In researching this question of what the incarnate Son of God knows, most of the material I found was in writings against the Arians. What I saw in your statement, "Even the Son had definite limitations in terms of certain knowledge and this is part of the obedience of the human will to the divine. Even Jesus did not know the day and hour of the final judgement!", was a lack of understanding of the Word of God and His incarnation and possessing of two natures, both divine and human. Obviously this is a huge subject and has been the cause of many falling away from God and His Church and the battle over it has raged for many decades, even centuries. Hopefully I have collected at least a few writings for you and others here to study this subject, if you wish. The idea would be that you would come to understand better Who the Son of God is and therefore in what sense He says what He does and what He means by it. Further, the meaning of the Holy Scripture is revealed by God through those whom He chooses and has taught the Church to recognize, it is not up to private interpretation. The whole weight of their commentaries and other writings, that I could find in several hours work, are all against the idea that the "Son doesn't know". Please feel free of course to provide your own sources for what you claim.

For further explaination on St. Matthew 24:36 and St. Mark 13:32 read St. Basil the Great's letter CCXXXVI to Amphilochius.

Since since "both what is human and what is divine belong to the one Christ", see:
St. John of Damascus - Precise Exposition of the Orthodox Faith - Book III, Chapter XXII
Read also Chapter XXIV - Concerning our Lord’s Praying.

For a better understanding of how Christ is spoken of in Holy Scripture read also in St. John of Damascus Book IV Chapter XVIII. Here is one quote from there: "Others are said by reason of distinction in thought. For if you divide in thought things that are inseparable in actual truth, to cut the flesh from the Word, the terms ‘servant’ and ‘ignorant’ are used of Him, for indeed He was of a subject and ignorant nature, and except that it was united with God the Word, His flesh was servile and ignorant. But because of the union in subsistence with God the Word it was neither servile nor ignorant. In this way, too, He called the Father His God."

See also:
St. Athanasius Third discourse against the Arians:
". . is the Framer of all said to be ignorant of His work?"

St. Ambose - Exposition of the Christian Faith - Book V, Chapter IV; paragraphs 191-198
"He therefore was not ignorant of the days; for it does not fall to the lot of the Wisdom of God to know in part and in part to be ignorant."

In Book III Chapter VII of St. John of Damascus Precise Exposition of the Orthodox Faith read about the "compound subsistance of God the Word.":

[AndyHolland]

What Jesus said is the truth. What the Gospels say is the truth.

andy holland
394 Beachley Hill
Somerset PA 15501

sinner

[AndyHolland]

I read some of what the father's wrote - and I do not yet believe all of them in this respect. See * below for a defense however of at least my thinking in line with the fathers. For the others, maybe I am too stupid. I believe the Holy Gospels.

Somehow I see a simpler explanation totally consistent with the Gospels and all the rest the fathers said. Is this called to my mind by my sinfulness or the Holy Spirit? I don't know. *

Why is it I cannot bring myself to believe My Lord and God lied to His disciples? Maybe when I lie, the Holy Spirit calls it to mind and I repent immediately?

Truly the Lord spoke:

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

I can obey the Orthodox Hierarchy but have a free conscience with regard to things that are beyond my capacity. However, I do not believe the hierarchy when they say the Lord and/or the Holy Gospel did not speak the truth.

If the Son says he does not know the hour, I then believe he does not know the hour.

What the Truth has spoken, that for truth I hold. I cannot reconcile other information the fathers bring in by any consistent means. Either I have to deny the Gospels or them. If pressed, I'll deny them.

I believe as a child believes. Why would anyone in their right mind speculate this way? Certainly I sinned bringing it up?

In truth, when I wrote of definite limits I felt the twinge of error, but when I wrote the phrase following it giving context in terms of will, all was calm*. Was that of God or the devil? I don't know. I am too stupid and sinful to rightly discern.

As for people loosly speaking Grace - the Lord is their Judge. Its too much for me. Let me be far from such company in judging who the Lord loves - I prefer to forgive and let God judge and not speak of the distribution of His Grace.

Truthfully, Honestly, Sincerely,

andy holland
sinner

• This is a fair defense of what I am saying:
  But observe that although we hold that the natures of the Lord permeate one another, yet we know that the permeation springs from the divine nature. For it is that that penetrates and permeates all things, as it wills, while nothing penetrates it: and it is it, too, that imparts to the flesh its own peculiar glories, while abiding itself impossible and without participation in the affections of the flesh. For if the sun imparts to us his energies and yet does not participate in ours, how much the rather must this be true of the Creator and Lord of the Sun