The Western Rite

[joasia]

Xenia,

I've really lost interest in doing battles of the posts. You have a hostility that comes out, very clearly, but because you apologized due to your sensitivity about the subject, I will respond, in a friendly way and I hope we can have a spiritual discussion and not a bashing, like others here do.

My previous response was a general comment. I really didn't think that it would become an issue for you and I apologize.

Following this form of thought, the West had it's own ORTHODOX traditions.

Which Liturgy is that? I might not be thinking of the same one that you are. What I'm referring to is the Anglican book of prayers that was altared in order to be acceptable to the Orthodox Russians, due to the converts coming from the Protestants.

... if it's permissible.

Not sure what you mean by that...

I was being general and referring to anything performed in the Liturgy that is not an expression of the Orthodox faith. I guess we would have to get a little more nit-picking, but in general, something that might reflect the Roman Catholic influence. For example, kneeling. The Orthodox faith upholds the belief that Sunday is the day of Christ's Ressurection and it is forbidden to kneel on Sunday, except Pentecost. That's just a small example of physical worship which reflects the spiritual worship. I'm sure the blessed clergy here would have much more details about the service, but I'm just making a simple example.

But I'd like to ask you something, when you say "the Western rite", do you mean to say that you believe that there is only one Western Rite, or do you mean, "The (particular) Western Rite being discussed(?)"

To make it simple...which Western Rite are you referring to?

Wrong, that is an incorrect presumption, because if it were, "done in the same way", that would make it the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, would it not?

Let me ask you...what is the majority form of prayer, St. John's or the Western Rite? What I mean about the same way is St. John's and I guess I'm limiting myself to the Byzantine style and you are expressing your view of the Western style.

But, until you post a response to my previous question, I don't know which Western Liturgy you are referring to. So, I will respond to this in the next post.

By WHOSE tradition?

East

Since it is not what? The Liturgy of St. John?

I mean, what are you stating REALLY?

It's not.....Orthodox? Why?

I was referring to the Western Rite. I should have said, and "if it's not". But, we still have to clarify which rite we are thinking about.

Because you don't have any actual pre-schism Orthodox text or because you can't read the Latin Google pdfs?

I can't read Latin. But just the same, where was this pdf file offered? I don't know what you mean by that. Was there a pre-schism Orthodox text provided? I didn't look. I can read Greek though.

Do you see how perhaps, you have already come to a certain conclusion before actually posting your response to this thread.

You are right. It's just an opinion, not a judgement. I was just considering the Byzantine Orthodox traditon.

Except, your post has been put forth in a tone of inquiry.

Yes. I wasn't looking for confrontation. I didn't think this would be such a pain to you. I'm sorry.

Now, I'd like to ask you, what do you mean by "the Liturgy" has to be "performed" the same way?

I always felt that an Orthodox Liturgy was prayed in the same format. If I went to another Orthodox Church, they would have the Byzantine service of St. John. The Western Rite is not very popular.

I hope you are aware that you are STILL comparing the local traditions within the sphere of those who use the SAME Liturgy to make your point.

Now I am.

Interesting observation, as I have also found, that many who claim to practice "The" (as in one and only) Western Rite, prefer to use innovations such as Anglican prayer books in place of truly Orthodox pre-schism text.

Which jurisdictions are the Western Rite Chruches that practice the faith, pre-Schism? I know only of the Anglican influence.

Not only that, but in the same breath, they will fuel enough "innovative" energy to spew out the bizarre notion that statues are "3D icons", which according to their own words are permissible for (get this) the "Western Orthodox" usage.

I wouldn't be surprised if they accepted hologram images. On youtube, I saw an icon that was prepped with neon lights that made his arm move to show a blessing.

Orthodoxy is a dogma of truth and should be used as a measuring stick against these kind of innovations. I just finished the book by Eusebius, The History of the Church and I hope we can be strong enough to put our feet down and say, NO, to the innovations. It really does alot of damage.

I just weary with both extremes. On the one side there are those who condemn the pre-schism Western Orthodox Rites for being either unfamiliar, Latin, or of "broken" tradition.

Then, on the other side, the so called "Western Rite" Orthodox, who refuse to actually practice Orthodoxy.

I'd like to know about the Western Rite Church that follows the Orthodox Traditon. Is there a website?

Thus far, I can tell you that I have found that many who practice the Eastern traditions refuse to look at the fact that once upon a time, there was a Western and an Eastern Church and they were both equally Orthodox.

That is a true blessing. But, where man exists, warefare against God is eminent. There are holy men and worldly men.

So now we are here, Xenia. What are WE going to do about it?

In Christ,

Joanna

[/quote]

[nyc_xenia]

Xenia,

I've really lost interest in doing battles of the posts. You have a hostility that comes out, very clearly, but because you apologized due to your sensitivity about the subject, I will respond, in a friendly way and I hope we can have a spiritual discussion and not a bashing, like others here do.

Hostility? Me, hostile? I don’t recall telling you anything even close to something like, “Let’s take it outside.”

Sorry you take me that way, maybe I should explain, I’m a native New Yorker, I don’t like to pussyfoot or beat around the bush, I prefer to be frank and lay “my cards on the table”, if you will.

Are you kiddin’? I’m just happy if I’m not typically flat out rude. I know you may not make note of this, but it’s something we New Yorkers have to “work on”. I find many people who visit NY get offended at stuff I wouldn’t even bat an eyelash at, not saying that that makes my disposition right. So, sorry if I seem brazen or “in your face”, it’s just that I’m rough around the edges and that’s the way I am. Maybe I’ll tag my post with a disclaimer of sorts:

“Warning (New Yorker Posting): Take whatever I write with a grain of salt and call me in the morning.”

My previous response was a general comment. I really didn't think that it would become an issue for you and I apologize.

Following this form of thought, the West had it's own ORTHODOX traditions.

It wasn’t an “issue” for me; it just seemed like you didn’t know much about Western Rite Orthodoxy and were perhaps saying (in a round about way) that it should not be “permissible” based on your comparisons to the traditions of the East.

Which Liturgy is that? I might not be thinking of the same one that you are. What I'm referring to is the Anglican book of prayers that was altared in order to be acceptable to the Orthodox Russians, due to the converts coming from the Protestants.

... if it's permissible.

Not sure what you mean by that...

I had the Hispanic (Mozarabic) Rite in mind, now that you mention it. But from your writing, I took it to mean that you were thinking about the Liturgy of St. Tikhon.

I was being general and referring to anything performed in the Liturgy that is not an expression of the Orthodox faith. I guess we would have to get a little more nit-picking, but in general, something that might reflect the Roman Catholic influence. For example, kneeling. The Orthodox faith upholds the belief that Sunday is the day of Christ's Ressurection and it is forbidden to kneel on Sunday, except Pentecost. That's just a small example of physical worship which reflects the spiritual worship. I'm sure the blessed clergy here would have much more details about the service, but I'm just making a simple example.

Well, you make a good point, as far as kneeling on Sundays, there is no kneeling done.

There are differences, but minor ones, reserved for local traditions within various rites.

As for heterodox innovations making their way into so called “Western Rite” services, there are some forms of worship that are used( by unnamed jurisdictions), which cast True Orthodoxy to the side for the sake of that which they prefer over True Western Orthodox traditions.

Needless to say, those who defend their innovations basically delude themselves by believing that they practice some form of actual Western Orthodoxy, when in fact they deviate from the pure and tested practice of the ancient Orthodox West.

But I'd like to ask you something, when you say "the Western rite", do you mean to say that you believe that there is only one Western Rite, or do you mean, "The (particular) Western Rite being discussed (?)"

To make it simple...which Western Rite are you referring to?

As I stated above, it probably wasn’t the “one” you were referring to. Which is why, I asked if you believed the “hype”, that there was only “one” Western Rite as opposed to Western Rite(s)?

Wrong, that is an incorrect presumption, because if it were, "done in the same way", that would make it the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, would it not?

Let me ask you...what is the majority form of prayer, St. John's or the Western Rite? What I mean about the same way is St. John's and I guess I'm limiting myself to the Byzantine style and you are expressing your view of the Western style.

But, until you post a response to my previous question, I don't know which Western Liturgy you are referring to. So, I will respond to this in the next post.

I suppose I can answer your question with a question and ask, what is the majority form of “prayer” in the world? Is it Orthodox, Roman Catholic or something else?

What do oranges have to do with apples?

By WHOSE tradition?

East

You responded to this thread about Western Rite Liturgies, and then it seems to behoove you that we are not discussing the customs and traditions of the East. Why is that?

… But, we still have to clarify which rite we are thinking about.

Uh, no not really, we don’t. Not unless you have something in particular in mind.

I can't read Latin. But just the same, where was this pdf file offered? I don't know what you mean by that. Was there a pre-schism Orthodox text provided? I didn't look. I can read Greek though.

There you go again, there isn’t one, but many pdf files of various ancient Liturgies in Google books. Most are hard to read because they are smudged, though on the occasion you will come across a clean & clear version of what ever you are searching for.

You are right. It's just an opinion, not a judgement. I was just considering the Byzantine Orthodox traditon.

I realize that, but the reason my husband began this thread was to discuss the Liturgies of the West in particular. It’s one thing, to ask how the two compare, in which case, if we are discussing the Mozarabic Rite I can tell you to view:

http://suaiden.freehostia.com/comparison.pdf

It’s another thing to enter a thread and not consider the actual interest you may have in a topic before posting.

I’m not saying your case was the latter, I am saying that one should at the very least address the subject at hand without trying to redirect the focus of a thread. It’s simple forum ethics.

Yes. I wasn't looking for confrontation. I didn't think this would be such a pain to you. I'm sorry.

So, are you saying I had the right to be hostile?

Just teasing…

I always felt that an Orthodox Liturgy was prayed in the same format. If I went to another Orthodox Church, they would have the Byzantine service of St. John. The Western Rite is not very popular.

You know, I used to think the same thing. I simply wasn’t aware that other Orthodox traditions and Liturgies existed outside of the East.

I had to ask a whole lot of questions and do quite a bit of reading myself, before I realized that there was EVER an Orthodox West.

I guess that perhaps it’s because somehow from the time I became a catechumen and was baptized into Orthodoxy, I was taught about the schism, the split which divided the East and the West, it was boiled down to where I only saw the Orthodox and “the rest”.

I shut my eyes on anything Western (pre or post schism). I believed that all Latin texts were tainted with some kind of heresy and just the reading of them could perchance taint ones soul; i.e. Saint Augustine’s writings.

But looking back, I see how I didn’t really contemplate the preaching of the Gospel & the Word of God (in my case) to Spain (the root of my fathers). I didn’t realize or perhaps I had no interest in reading about the suffering of any of the Martyrs or Confessors or of anyone who wanted to cling to True Orthodoxy while living in the West before or after the schism.

There are too many righteous souls, some whose lives we have recorded and others, who will go unnoticed until judgment. After many questions to others, I finally came to ask myself, “What was this Orthodoxy of the West and how might I come to understand it?”

Now, such a thing may not matter to someone whose ethnic and cultural history is known to have the Eastern traditions and Liturgy as its root, but it may come to matter to those who come to know, “My ancestors were Orthodox and I know nothing of their teachings or of their Holy Orthodoxy”.

I hope you are aware that you are STILL comparing the local traditions within the sphere of those who use the SAME Liturgy to make your point.

Now I am.

I hate to disagree, but it seemed like this was the case from the get-go. Scroll up & look at where you stated that the traditions of that which was “right or wrong” , was based on those Liturgical practices (in your opinion) that were in fact, Eastern Orthodox traditions alone.

It’s ok that you thought that, it’s not ok (IMHO) to ignore that the pre-schism Orthodox West ever existed. Not only that but then, slam on those who wish to continue in the traditions of their ancestors. And this is not directed to you, but rather to those who have found “cause” (in their own hand writing) to forsake the Orthodox past of their own lineage for the Orthodoxy of a more acceptable and less “questionable” culture and ethnicity.

Interesting observation, as I have also found, that many who claim to practice "The" (as in one and only) Western Rite, prefer to use innovations such as Anglican prayer books in place of truly Orthodox pre-schism text.

Which jurisdictions are the Western Rite Chruches that practice the faith, pre-Schism? I know only of the Anglican influence.

Read: http://westernritefraud.freehostia.com/liturgy.html

This page clearly points out the various rites and jurisdictions.

I wouldn't be surprised if they accepted hologram images. On youtube, I saw an icon that was prepped with neon lights that made his arm move to show a blessing.

LOL. Tsk, you should have posted that, it would have been amusing, at the very least.

Orthodoxy is a dogma of truth and should be used as a measuring stick against these kinds of innovations. I just finished the book by Eusebius, The History of the Church and I hope we can be strong enough to put our feet down and say, NO, to the innovations. It really does alot of damage.

I agree 100%.

I'd like to know about the Western Rite Church that follows the Orthodox Traditon. Is there a website?

You can ask your own questions here:

Orthodox Circle: Western Rite Orthodoxy Group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxWest/

Outside of my dear husbands sites I can direct any inquisitor to these sites:

http://milansynodusa.org/

http://holynameabbey.org/AboutUs.htm

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/

A little biased, I know, but you asked the messenger so…

What d’ya expect, right?

Thus far, I can tell you that I have found that many who practice the Eastern traditions refuse to look at the fact that once upon a time, there was a Western and an Eastern Church and they were both equally Orthodox.

That is a true blessing. But, where man exists, warefare against God is eminent. There are holy men and worldly men.

Once again you speak plainly, not only do I appreciate it, but once again, we agree.

The problem is that we are not fighting against flesh; we are in a battle against something far greater. Worldly men seek one thing, and in this late hour, it is the beginning of the end which they seek, because that will be their hour of “glory”. Yet for the godly, they will continue to seek to preserve the Truth and that which God has handed them. These few will find it hard to bear in this age of apostasy. However, they will be sustained by the prayers and the intercessions of the Saints and of the Holy Theotokos.

Those who cling to the faith of the Fathers seek only to preserve the purity of Orthodoxy; albeit, in the end, they will find not only mockery and opposition, they will, like Bishop Diomid, find persecution, ridicule and slander. In the worst or best case scenario (depending if one views things from a worldly or spiritual view) one may end up a New Martyr (witness) for the Truth.

The problem is, that as Fr. (or Blessed/Saint as some call him) Seraphim Rose pointed out; (in so many writings and speeches) the end is sooner than we think. Thus, we find ourselves often lost in the currents of this worlds churning, and sometimes we may even find ourselves at a loss for words or understanding, and perhaps in some cases, we may even find ourselves devoid of a healthy spiritual direction.

So now we are here, Xenia. What are WE going to do about it?

In Christ,

Joanna

My dearest Joanna, what have any of us left, but to pray?

With love in Christ,
Xenia

[Pravoslavnik]

Of course the West was Orthodox for centuries... The Orthodox faith was established in merry old England, the land of the Venerable Bede, six centuries before it was embraced by St. Vladimir and the Kievan Rus. And various liturgies were used in the Orthodox East and West during the past two millenia of Orthodox Christian history. The earliest, I believe, was that attributed to St. James, the Brother of the Lord. The Greeks and the Latins obviously celebrated the liturgy long before the time of St. John Chrysostomos, and there were some differences in matters of praxis in Rome and the Eastern Mediterranean from the earliest days of the Church--as well as many crucial similarities..

Code: Select all

   It is the similarities in crucial matters of theoria and praxis--defined in the great Ecumenical Councils--that constitute the essence of Orthodoxy.  Some, like the Pharisees, are inclined to strain the gnat of ethnic and regional differences of liturgical style, whilst "swallowing the camel" of Orthodox "super correctness" in such matters, denouncing any who depart from their most familiar extant form of Eastern Orthodox liturgical praxis by--heaven forbid--genuflecting!!  As if St. Seraphim of Sarov did not kneel for weeks on a large rock praying for God's mercy in a most, apparently un-Orthodox, manner!  And who among us has the authority to say that any liturgy is truly Orthodox, anyway?  Do we know better than Patriarch St. Tikhon, or have greater God-given authority than St. John of San Francisco, who truly venerated the Western Orthodox saints, and even sponsored Western Rite clergymen and parishes in Europe and America?  

   One final question.  What, precisely, did the Lord mean when He said to the Pharisees, "[i]The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath?"[/i]   Too many questions.  Too little time..

[Suaidan]

Some, like the Pharisees, are inclined to strain the gnat of ethnic and regional differences of liturgical style, whilst "swallowing the camel" of Orthodox "super correctness" in such matters, denouncing any who depart from their most familiar extant form of Eastern Orthodox liturgical praxis by--heaven forbid--genuflecting!! As if St. Seraphim of Sarov did not kneel for weeks on a large rock praying for God's mercy in a most, apparently un-Orthodox, manner!

St Seraphim did not genuflect (as in bending on one knee) He kneeled. Western Orthodox do prostrations too and kneel. We have a couple of unique forms, such as the full prostration to the ground which looks somewhat different from the Eastern form.

But we do not genuflect --as in bending on one knee-- since this is an innovation, which even the Romans themselves admit; and in many Roman Catholic countries consider an act of disrespect.

[Pravoslavnik]

Joseph.

Code: Select all

    I read somewhere that the Russian practice of prostration was "imported" from the court of the Mongol Khans.  Do you know much about the history of the forms of prostrations used in the Orthodox Churches of the East and West?  And when, for example, did the Roman Catholic practice of genuflecting begin?  I take it from your above comment that it was a post-Schism innovation of the Latin West.

[Suaidan]

Joseph.

Code: Select all

    I read somewhere that the Russian practice of prostration was "imported" from the court of the Mongol Khans.  Do you know much about the history of the forms of prostrations used in the Orthodox Churches of the East and West?  And when, for example, did the Roman Catholic practice of genuflecting begin?  I take it from your above comment that it was a post-Schism innovation of the Latin West.[/quote]

The bending on one knee, I believe, in fact did come from knighthood in the 13th century, though some sources say that it is far later (it was officially recognized as a gesture of prayer in the Roman Church in 1502).

[joasia]

Xenia

I know you may not make note of this, but it’s something we New Yorkers have to “work on”.

I've noted it frequently, when I have to call a customer based in NY or NJ. It's gonna take alot of work...

It wasn’t an “issue” for me

That's not what I understood from your comment:

Anyway, sorry, I'm not getting "uppity" with you, it's just a sore spot.

That to me sounds like you have an issue with the subject. That's why I made my comment.

I had the Hispanic (Mozarabic) Rite in mind, now that you mention it. But from your writing, I took it to mean that you were thinking about the Liturgy of St. Tikhon.

I think your husband should have specified which he was referring to, at the beginning. Which one did he have in mind? That's why after your reply, it occurred to me that we might be discussing different Rites. I don't know anything about the Hispanic one. How many Western Rites are there, anyway? This is new to me.

I suppose I can answer your question with a question and ask, what is the majority form of “prayer” in the world? Is it Orthodox, Roman Catholic or something else?

What I was thinking about was the Orthodox faith, in various countries that I see following St. John's Liturgy, whether new or old calendar. There's Greece, Russian, Bulgaria, Serbia, Turkey(Constantinople), Slovakia and others(that I can't think of now), that are the ancient Churches and then the countries that are under their jurisdiction, like the Western countries(and let's not forget the Far East). I think the Western Rites falls under another category that can be either Orthodox in respect to the Orthodox dogma or those that incorporate innovations, as you mentioned.

By WHOSE tradition?

East

You responded to this thread about Western Rite Liturgies, and then it seems to behoove you that we are not discussing the customs and traditions of the East. Why is that?

Excuse me for being confused. Your husband asked the "list members" what they thought was "legitimate expressions of Orthodoxy". Then I asked him to clarify. Apparently, you didn't understand what he meant either. Then he asked 3 questions. Deacon Nicholai answered. Since I am a list memeber, I thought I had the right to answer and I answered with the supposition that he(your husband) was referring to the Western Rite most popular in the U.S. I was a little confused about Deacon Nicholai's third answer, but I figured it would be clarified later. Since your husband was asking the list members, which I am one, I gave my silly little view of it. And here we are. But, it seems that my response is not really required. I don't have the knowledge of expertise that you are seeking.

… But, we still have to clarify which rite we are thinking about.

Uh, no not really, we don’t. Not unless you have something in particular in mind.

This is redundent since I am reading your response, for the first time to my comments above. Now, I know your views. It's not like we're talking on line. Get it?

There you go again, there isn’t one, but many pdf files of various ancient Liturgies in Google books. Most are hard to read because they are smudged, though on the occasion you will come across a clean & clear version of what ever you are searching for.

There I go again how? I thought you were referring to a specific file. Forget this part.

I realize that, but the reason my husband began this thread was to discuss the Liturgies of the West in particular.

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I assumed that the "legitimate Rites of Orthodoxy" was based on the Eastern Rites, that I thought the members who are Orthodox, here, follow. Nobody ever mentioned that they were part of the Western Rite, unless I missed a post about that.

I’m not saying your case was the latter, I am saying that one should at the very least address the subject at hand without trying to redirect the focus of a thread. It’s simple forum ethics.

I never assumed to redirect it. I just misunderstood the direction of it. I thought since most here follow St. John's Liturgy that it was a question of comparision.

Whoever follows the truth of Christ's teachings, passed down from the Apostles, in dogma and spirit is accepted, by God as His servant; He has witnessed this through His saints. That's the true measure of the Orthodox faith. I don't have any knowledge of the Western Rite so I'll stop here.