Question about writings on the ROAC USA website

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Suaidan
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Re: Question about writings on the ROAC USA website

Post by Suaidan »

Priest Siluan wrote:

Why do you write Vl. Andrei directly, and ask him about? for what I know our church rejects Evolutionism. Maybe here, there is a confusion, I think that those articles were put on there by the former priest Elías Greer (Grivakos)

Really, Father? Fr Elias left ROAC for Milan years ago. Did nobody notice in the meantime, including you while you were with ROAC until a few months ago? You say "our Church considers it heretical". Did your previous Church while you were part of it, with those articles not far from a link to your website?

I don't want to get into the debate about evolution here (I believe it is false, and I believe "The River of FIre" is theologically questionable), but to then turn and say "let's blame it on that guy because he's with someone else now" is a little pathetic.

And yes, that "someone else" is my Synod, and we both know that.

Fr Joseph Suaidan (Suaiden, same guy)

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stephendaniel
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Re: Question about writings on the ROAC USA website

Post by stephendaniel »

While it seems those writings are still available to download from the original links provided, ROAC did remove them from the "Catechism" section of their website. The "River of Fire" article is still there.

I read the "River of Fire" awhile ago... For the sake of clarity, can someone please indicate what is unorthodox about it? I am not defending it - I sincerely do not know.

filofei
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Re: Question about writings on the ROAC USA website

Post by filofei »

The most troubling aspect of the Kalomiran view of hell is the notion that heaven and hell are the same objective reality experienced subjectively. Several questions arise as a result: How are the scriptural references to heaven and hell as physical places compatible with this view? If indeed the experience of heaven and hell entirely depends on our personal response to God's love, what prevents the worst sinners from being receptive to it and what prevents the recipients of salvation from rejecting it after death? If hell's torment is solely caused by hate against God, how did the rich man in the parable of Lazarus cry out to Father Abraham, "Have mercy on me"? Is this reflective of hate against God?

In addition, Dr. Kalomiros introduces yet another heretical statement: "God never hates, never punishes, never takes vengeance." Is he familiar with the Bible or the Church Fathers at all? The Scriptural references replete with mentions of divine wrath and eternal punishment will obviate the need to quote all the verses in it. For convenience’s sake, I am quoting the following two verses from Revelation, 20:9-10. “(A)nd fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.” It is evident in these Bible verses that the destructive fire originates from God, not from His creatures. Of course, this is not to portray God as a Christian equivalent of the Hindu goddess Kali. Rather, it is a reiteration of another significant aspect of divine justice besides correction. Namely, retribution. As for his patrisitc references, let us examine the very words of the saints, whom Dr. Kalomiros chose for his article. St. John of Damascus writes, "A judge justly punishes one who is guilty of wrongdoing; and if he does not punish him he is himself a wrongdoer." St. Symeon the New Theologian writes, "(If I)depart from this life still defiled, I shall be fit to suffer derision on the part of God and His angels and be cast into eternal fire with the demons."

In my opinion, the River of Fire is a well-wrapped deism. By stripping God of His ultimate authority to execute justice and judgment, Dr. Kalomiros reduces God into a mere clock maker and elevates us men to the status of the sovereign overlord of our own fate. In his stark portrait, the farthest extent of God's role is the creator of the law. He is a passive and powerless lawmaker. As for the enforcement and execution of justice, they become our sole responsibility. Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with this humanistic picture? It is important to remember that God's law first went into effect before there ever was its violation. This alone demonstrates the supreme sovereignty of God. While we provide the essential ground for God's justice to be carried out, the end result, however, is God's active governance at work in response to our transgressions. It is this aspect of divine sovereignty and our subjection to it that Dr. Kalomiros loses sight of in determination to "peculiarize" Orthodox Christianity at all costs.

The idea of God as espoused by Dr. Kalomiros is an industrial printing press. While its main function is to provide invaluable information in the form of written media for all people, some in their carelessness may fall into it and die; the machine is not to blame for it simply did its own job. The major problem with this view is that we are in full control of our destiny and God plays no part in it. Why is it wrong for God to render judgment against those who continue to disobey Him? Why is it wrong to have fear of God? What's Dr Kalomiros's objection to the wrath of God? I do believe that God's love fills both heaven and hell but love sometimes is expressed in the form of violence and fear. Out of love for Father, our Lord overturned the tables of money changers and merchants at the temple; out of love for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, St. Nicholas punched the heretic Arius at the Council of Nicea. If they had just stood there in indifference, would that have demonstrated their fervent love for God and humanity? Far from it.

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stephendaniel
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Re: Question about writings on the ROAC USA website

Post by stephendaniel »

Thank you so much for the clarification, Filofei. If I may ask, which jurisdiction do you belong to?

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Priest Siluan
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Re: Question about writings on the ROAC USA website

Post by Priest Siluan »

Suaiden wrote:
Priest Siluan wrote:

Why do you write Vl. Andrei directly, and ask him about? for what I know our church rejects Evolutionism. Maybe here, there is a confusion, I think that those articles were put on there by the former priest Elías Greer (Grivakos)

Really, Father? Fr Elias left ROAC for Milan years ago. Did nobody notice in the meantime, including you while you were with ROAC until a few months ago? You say "our Church considers it heretical". Did your previous Church while you were part of it, with those articles not far from a link to your website?

I don't want to get into the debate about evolution here (I believe it is false, and I believe "The River of FIre" is theologically questionable), but to then turn and say "let's blame it on that guy because he's with someone else now" is a little pathetic.

And yes, that "someone else" is my Synod, and we both know that.

I do not interested where is Grivakos today, but he was who put every of those articles on the Catechetical section of the ROAC USA site, and those articles were taken from Bishop Alexandr (Mileant), I dont know if it was done with or without any permission from the original site and if Bishop Andrei blessed Grivakos to do so.

BTW. I have not any interest to attack you or your jurisdiction. And my last post in this topic (which you is replying now) is enough old, it was writing in March 2012.

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Priest Siluan
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Re: Question about writings on the ROAC USA website

Post by Priest Siluan »

filofei wrote:

The most troubling aspect of the Kalomiran view of hell is the notion that heaven and hell are the same objective reality experienced subjectively. Several questions arise as a result: How are the scriptural references to heaven and hell as physical places compatible with this view? If indeed the experience of heaven and hell entirely depends on our personal response to God's love, what prevents the worst sinners from being receptive to it and what prevents the recipients of salvation from rejecting it after death? If hell's torment is solely caused by hate against God, how did the rich man in the parable of Lazarus cry out to Father Abraham, "Have mercy on me"? Is this reflective of hate against God?

In addition, Dr. Kalomiros introduces yet another heretical statement: "God never hates, never punishes, never takes vengeance." Is he familiar with the Bible or the Church Fathers at all? The Scriptural references replete with mentions of divine wrath and eternal punishment will obviate the need to quote all the verses in it. For convenience’s sake, I am quoting the following two verses from Revelation, 20:9-10. “(A)nd fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.” It is evident in these Bible verses that the destructive fire originates from God, not from His creatures. Of course, this is not to portray God as a Christian equivalent of the Hindu goddess Kali. Rather, it is a reiteration of another significant aspect of divine justice besides correction. Namely, retribution. As for his patrisitc references, let us examine the very words of the saints, whom Dr. Kalomiros chose for his article. St. John of Damascus writes, "A judge justly punishes one who is guilty of wrongdoing; and if he does not punish him he is himself a wrongdoer." St. Symeon the New Theologian writes, "(If I)depart from this life still defiled, I shall be fit to suffer derision on the part of God and His angels and be cast into eternal fire with the demons."

In my opinion, the River of Fire is a well-wrapped deism. By stripping God of His ultimate authority to execute justice and judgment, Dr. Kalomiros reduces God into a mere clock maker and elevates us men to the status of the sovereign overlord of our own fate. In his stark portrait, the farthest extent of God's role is the creator of the law. He is a passive and powerless lawmaker. As for the enforcement and execution of justice, they become our sole responsibility. Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with this humanistic picture? It is important to remember that God's law first went into effect before there ever was its violation. This alone demonstrates the supreme sovereignty of God. While we provide the essential ground for God's justice to be carried out, the end result, however, is God's active governance at work in response to our transgressions. It is this aspect of divine sovereignty and our subjection to it that Dr. Kalomiros loses sight of in determination to "peculiarize" Orthodox Christianity at all costs.

The idea of God as espoused by Dr. Kalomiros is an industrial printing press. While its main function is to provide invaluable information in the form of written media for all people, some in their carelessness may fall into it and die; the machine is not to blame for it simply did its own job. The major problem with this view is that we are in full control of our destiny and God plays no part in it. Why is it wrong for God to render judgment against those who continue to disobey Him? Why is it wrong to have fear of God? What's Dr Kalomiros's objection to the wrath of God? I do believe that God's love fills both heaven and hell but love sometimes is expressed in the form of violence and fear. Out of love for Father, our Lord overturned the tables of money changers and merchants at the temple; out of love for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, St. Nicholas punched the heretic Arius at the Council of Nicea. If they had just stood there in indifference, would that have demonstrated their fervent love for God and humanity? Far from it.

Thank you, dear Filofei!

I think this innovative "soteriology" is of modernist and Western origin, it is very popular in Roman Catholic and Protestant circles, and Ecumenist and Modernist "Orthodox" take it from their "Christian Brothers".

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Suaidan
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Re: Question about writings on the ROAC USA website

Post by Suaidan »

Priest Siluan wrote:
Suaiden wrote:
Priest Siluan wrote:

I do not interested where is Grivakos today, but he was who put every of those articles on the Catechetical section of the ROAC USA site, and those articles were taken from Bishop Alexandr (Mileant), I dont know if it was done with or without any permission from the original site and if Bishop Andrei blessed Grivakos to do so.

BTW. I have not any interest to attack you or your jurisdiction. And my last post in this topic (which you is replying now) is enough old, it was writing in March 2012.

Well, that was embarrassing... from the future.

I saw latest posts, saw your second to last, assumed on it, my apologies.

Fr Joseph Suaidan (Suaiden, same guy)

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