Yet Another Western Rite Argument

[Matthew]

You have a point, however, this was not the conclusion of the Synod under the leadership of St. Philaret of NY. He blessed the Old Rite to be restored and all bans lifted, taking things a step further than the pre-revolutionary Church of Russia did. They did not insist on their parish in Erie PA to dump their love for the Old Rite. So, too, if people want to keep the Sarum Rite, I say, if it seems good to the synod and the Holy Spirit, then fine! So, it is for the Bishops to figure that one out, I think.

[Revnitel]

Generally speaking the Old Rite survived in schism, and there were even Jedinovertsy in Pre Revolutionary Russia. It is just an older Russian form of the Byzantine Rite. There are no such survivals of Western Rites.

[Matthew]

Again, as I said, you have a point. However, there is nothing written the canons that make your argument, nor precedents in any accounts I have read, that show that there is something wrong or contrary or unorthodox and unacceptable about restoring the Ancient Orthodox English rite (the Sarum Rite), or any other rite that fell into disuse. Anything that WAS Orthodox, REMAINS Orthodox, and is by no means forbidden, granted one has a blessing from one's Right Believing Bishop. If the bishop feels this is not beneficial to the health of the Church, he will forbid it and we should obey his judgement. But this is a matter for the Church's episcopacy to decide. We can certainly try to surmise what might be the healthiest course to follow, but we cannot really speak too boldly here about it, as we have not been granted the Grace of Ordination to know the mind of the Spirit about this matter.

[Revnitel]

The fact you have to restore it means it passed out of Orthodox useage. Again, the Sarum Rite when celebrated properly isn't much different than the LIVING Byzantine Rite. Why bother? For the sake of novelty? That isn't a good enough answer. We have living Orthodox rites that Orthodox observe. Wasting time with Western Rite fantasies is a diversion from Orthodox worship. Although there is no canon stating that you can't use the Mormon Temple rite, common sense tells you otherwise. Even though that is not an Orthodox rite, someone with enough gumption could edit it ala the Western Riters and make it so. That is the point. Tradition is that which is handed down in the Life of the Holy Spirit. The Sarum Rite hasn't survived for us in that manner.

[Matthew]

I am not saying that the Sarum Rite SHOULD be restored. I am simply saying that the fact is has fallen into disuse does not preclude it being potentially restored. Your point that it would add little to our spiritual needs as the modern rites we enjoy in the liturgy of St John Chrysostom for example, and its restoration would be superfluous, is well taken. But as I said, that would be for the competance of someone of episcopal rank to decide, and the outcome would to a good degree depend upon some future circumstances that we cannot forsee. I am merely acknowledging my own limitations to be able to address this kind of question, and since I am further not able to see the every possible future contingency I cannot rule out the possibility that some bishop in the future, should Christ tarry, may find just cause to see it restored for some reason suited to unforseeable events or conditions. Otherwise, I have no problem with what you have said in terms of the present realities in which we Orthodox are living.

[Hieromonk Enoch]

I'm generally falling out with internet debate as time goes on. But, someone wrote:

"Again, the Sarum Rite when celebrated properly isn't much different than the LIVING Byzantine Rite."

I, for one, would like to know how this is true? Not interested in the "whether we should do this or that", but, just the statement that the 'Sarum Rite' isn't much different when properly celebrated than the 'Byzantine Rite'. If the 'Sarum Rite' isn't being celebrated on a regular basis, then, it wouldn't be 'LIVING', which means, how would anyone know if it "isn't much different than the LIVING Byzantine Rite" when properly celebrated?

As for the other statement:

" Although there is no canon stating that you can't use the Mormon Temple rite, common sense tells you otherwise. Even though that is not an Orthodox rite, someone with enough gumption could edit it ala the Western Riters and make it so."

I think it is entirely unfair to compare the devil inspired rituals of the Mormon Temple to the prayers composed by the Orthodox Fathers in the West (like St. Leo the Great, St. Gregory, etc).

-Fr. Enoch

[Matthew]

To me, Fr. Enoch, it is not really a matter of fairness, but irrelevance since it is comparing an entirely different issue that has no real bearing to the issue in question. However, I ignored that inconsistency to address the basic point of RevNitel's argument, which had a valid point of concern but did not, in my opinion face the unknown possibilities of the future, and that we are really only surmising and ruminating upon things that we really can't know nor are graced with the competence that would really be required to answer this issue with the full guidance of the Holy Spirit. I am thinking of the episcopal rank.