On effeminacy

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Natasha
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Joined: Sat 22 March 2003 2:52 pm

Post by Natasha »

Justin wrote, "...also feel that I should state, because I have no wish to hide anything or "go behind people's back" or whatever, that I've sent a request to Nicholas that you be banned, Wheeler....I believe you are capable of destroying this forum by running off those who still enjoy posting here, me included."

I have sent the same type of message to Nicholas, and I will not be posting anymore until all this mess is cleaned up. Some of the current topics brought up here are an embarassment to true Orthodox Christians.

gphadraig
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Joined: Mon 23 August 2004 4:19 pm

Post by gphadraig »

Please may I chuck my two pence worth in here? My forbears were forced to use English and forbidden to use their own language, among other things.

English like every other language has its strengths and weaknesses. It appears simple but is not. A language fostered by the remarkable King Alfred the Great, used to its fullest by Shakespeare and Yeats, and influenced by the King James Version of the Bible should not be described as 'terrible'. It has limitations when used used in philosophical and theological debates, e.g. Our Lord's statement to St Peter following his statement of faith.

One measure of English is its world wide success. Had Chinese exploration of the seas not been curtailed almost before it started maybe Mandarin would have fulfilled the place taken today by English in its umpteen variations.

As to my own attitude to the language, I bear no ill will, just a sense of loss..........

Christopher
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English and Effeminacy

Post by Christopher »

Hi Wheeler:

I am glad to see your zeal for Orthodoxy and your idealism with the masculine role. It takes some 'cojones' to speak up about this in our society.

Regarding linguistics, one might argue both for and against English being a good language for different uses. It is true that a vocabulary develops in response to cultural experience. The Byzantine Empire was saturated with Christian Orthodoxy and theological study. They developed a very accurate vocabulary to articulate concepts. Compare this to Arabic which has many words to describe sand while Inuit/Eskimo languages have only one but many more to describe different types of snow. How many words do you think that Arabic has for snow? The United States has developed a very extensive vocabulary for technical scholarship, i.e., engineering, science, etc. These words are rarely translated into different words in other languages-- they just use our vocabulary. You might say that English is very advanced in this area. Latin, known to be a very rich language has a dearth of words for different colors. Spanish has fewer words than English but is still a very rich literary language. Go figure. One more point on this, English comes from proto-Indo-European which has a very advanced set of verb tenses and moods (present indicative, present perfect, present progressive, present subjunctive, past conditional, pluperfect, etc.-- you get the point). Many languages that lack such an advanced systems yield different ways of thinking. Studies on children who have a maternal language without these constructs are often unable to think temporally or relationally in time. For example, they are unable to think abstractly about the differences between 2:00pm and 10:30pm without looking at the sky to see if it is day or night. In English, we can-- and we do so with a minimum of cognitive effort. Look up anything by Noam Chomsky-- he's the major linguistic scholar of our time.

Regarding male effeminacy, were you meaning to say that the traditional gender roles seem to be reversed in our time? I would say it looks like this is happening with the advent of militant and 'third-wave' feminism. For a very eloquent discussion of this, see a book called 'Man of Velvet and Steel' by Aubrey Andelin. I can tell you first hand that it does little good to bemoan the lack of manliness in today's American male (I speak in broad generalities here). It is much better to simply live a manly life. I can guarantee you that people will notice-- especially traditional women. The feminists will denounce you because you hit their sore point and because you are correct. Also, be very careful about equating military with manliness and college with effeminacy. The true measure of a man is not measured in the size of the muscles or the ability to shoot automatic rifles accurately. It is measured in integrity, faith, courage, and taking responsibility for one's family. I can tell you that some men who are crippled or dying are very manly while some military men are cowards at heart.

Keep up your studies in these two subjects-- you're on the right track.

In Christ,
Christopher

gphadraig
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Joined: Mon 23 August 2004 4:19 pm

Post by gphadraig »

I guess in making the following post is to succumb to a temptation. That said, here I go.

The Spartans were a very hard and martial people with a reputation which instilled fear in any who might oppose them. Comformity was the watch word at every level with none exempt from scrutiny, including the dual monarchs. Taken from their families at 8 years of age, deliberately underfed and urged to steal extra food. And if caught beaten mercilessly. They were urged or forced to take one of their peers as a lover. (The rationale being that both would fight harder in battle to protect his lover). Only much later were they allowed to marry in order that they may bear sons.

A married Spartan leaving for war was blessed by his wife with the wish he return either bearing his shield or borne on his shield, i.e. either successful in combat or dead.

In the eyes of many today these guys - complete with their long styled hair - would be seen as effeminate, queer or faggots - but frightening warriors even so. Testosterone charged Rambos of their age perchance?

Maybe what is lacking in parts of this thread is a definition of what is a Man, how does it differ from that of a woman, and what is 'effeminacy'? Like others books, articles and personal encounters throws up again and again examples of Orthodox ascetics who exhibit qualities of humility, sensitivity and avoidance of displays of imtemperate behaviour. Pious and respectful people seem never to accuse these pious men of being effeminate; rather attributing to them great strength, albeit one not based on testosterone and dominance.

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