The Secret Ladder

joasia · Post by **joasia** » Sat 23 October 2004 2:44 pm

May I say a word? The story is said in a simple way. But, since we know that Christ DOES know what's going on all the time, then wouldn't this be more like a lesson about believing in the compassion of God, thru the Theotokos?

I will give one example...when the woman who had a flow of blood for 12 years, touched Christ's clothes...didn't He turn around and say:"Who touched MY clothes?"

Do you really believe, that He didn't KNOW?

"And He looked around to see her who had done this thing". Mark 5:32.

How could He have looked at her who was the one who did it, amongst all those people, if He didn't know. There were sooo many people crowding around.

So...point being, that His question wasn't one of ignorance...as we know that God is not ignorant, but of one Who was trying to teach a lesson to others. And the result was a miracle.

Milla's story is one that illustrates a lesson, but certainly does not instigate that God does not know what was happening. It was a way of expressing a compassion that is very special about the Theotokos. Even if it was taken from a non-Orthodox source.

And, in my opinion, it expressed her compassion and love for us, very well. I've had a taste of it, myself.

And this is coming from a person who is so stict on head scarfs! So lighten up, TomS...it's not the end of the world.

Joasia

romiosini · Post by **romiosini** » Sat 23 October 2004 3:36 pm

Well said Joanna. And the one that bleeded was Saint Veronica (Correct me if I'm wrong!).

And yes, what Joasia is saying is that GOD (speaking of Christ, the second person of the Holy Trinity) know every that was going on. If he didn't then His human nature wouldn't be perfect now would it be?

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Sat 23 October 2004 7:16 pm

If we follow that logic, then the story makes no sense. Christ would never have led Peter on a search to find out how these souls "broke" into heaven.

Stories like this corrupt the Gospel.

George Australia · Post by **George Australia** » Sat 23 October 2004 7:18 pm

Tom,
Please forgive me.
I thought that the answer was so obvious as pointed out by Joanna and Vasili that I believed you were being sarcastic. I'm so sorry.

Ephraem · Post by **Ephraem** » Sun 24 October 2004 7:10 pm

What Tom is pointing out is that this "legend" does indeed trespass the Orthodox veneration of Mary by inserting an illustration of her as co-Redemptress. As it says, "And sinful souls shone forth as gold, anewly gleaming, All pure and cleansed by Her divinest tears." Regardless of the debate as to whether Christ knows or not, Mary is pictured as independently circumscribing the judgement of the Son of God, by going into Hell and saving the damned.

Regarding Mary, according to Pope Pius IX, "your dominion reaches as far as the heavens and to you are subject the earth and all creatures dwelling thereon. Your dominion reaches even down into the abyss of hell, and you alone, oh Mary, save us from the hands of Satan.”

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." - Acts 4:12

Why resort to misleading Papist legends to reinforce our ideas of and love for the Theotokos? Isn't there substantial Orthodox witness to that, a witness that follows the straight rule and does not lead to a perversion of faith?

And George, this has nothing to do with Mary having the ear of her Son, for she would never contradict his will by discrediting His judgement, i.e. taking someone who has been placed in Hell and putting them in Heaven. It's Catholic nonsense.

George Australia · Post by **George Australia** » Sun 24 October 2004 7:30 pm

Ephraem wrote:
And George, this has nothing to do with Mary having the ear of her Son, for she would never contradict his will by discrediting His judgement, i.e. taking someone who has been placed in Hell and putting them in Heaven. It's Catholic nonsense.

Why do we pray for the dead then if we cannot change their lot and their sins cannot be forgiven?

romiosini · Post by **romiosini** » Sun 24 October 2004 8:03 pm

George Australia wrote:
Ephraem wrote:
And George, this has nothing to do with Mary having the ear of her Son, for she would never contradict his will by discrediting His judgement, i.e. taking someone who has been placed in Hell and putting them in Heaven. It's Catholic nonsense.

Why do we pray for the dead then if we cannot change their lot and their sins cannot be forgiven?

Actually, has anyone heard the Small Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos? Do you not hear that words, that the Saints (by asking their intercession and spiritualy bonding with them through GOD) can be our defenders not undergo the Judgement. (For only the Righteous and the Saints do not undergo the Judgement.) Because the second Coming will be to Judge the living and the Dead for their bad Actions. Now that isn't Catholic nonsense actually....
Hey, anyone read the life of Saint Xenia of Saint-Petersburg the Fool for Christ? She consecrated her life to Christ in the streets of Russia for the bad life her husband had. (Due to heavy alcoholism he died) And Saint Xenia, begged GOD all her living days for his salvation, and not punishment to Hell. Well, because of her good actions, an Angel of God came to her some time before her Dormition telling her that her husband has been saved thanks to her. Both her and her husband will be brother and sister in Paradise. So actually doing memorial requiem services and prayers for the dead are actually tiny grains of good salt for the dead. That isn't Catholic nonsense. Catholics believe everyone can go to Heaven. Of course, in Saint Xenia's situation, she wouldn't of begged GOD for her husband's repose with the Saints if she didn't know that there is a possible goodness that could revert his fate. Of course, when someone that did not repent, murdered and who knows what, it is literally impossible to help those dead.