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Alexis in Alaska
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Post by Alexis in Alaska »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Joe:

The problem with the sedevacantist thesis is that it is a Protestant/Non Latin way of dealing with a fallen Pope and Papacy. As you know Joe the Canons of the Latin Church have a provision for the anathamatization of a heretical Pontiff, but this is to be initiated by the Holy Office or now known as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The rather unfortunate thing is that although lay people have a right to decry heresy in traditional Catholic theology, they cannot judge a Pontiff who is a heretic; only the Curia can investigate these matters and make a decision and invoke an ecclesiastical court to make a decision. Now here comes the clincher: the party line in the CDF is Vatican II and its subsequent development and theology. That means the CDF will not be convening an ecclesiastical court any time soon to depose the heretical Pope of Rome.

Now the ultra-sedevacantist thesis is that world Catholicism with the last four Pontiffs and Papacy are apostate tools of the Devil and now only a small remnant is extant: therefore the lay Church must elect a new Pope and a New Curia - and as in the case of Pope claimant Pius XIII; because no bishops can be found we, Pius XIII aka Father Pulvermacher, will ordain our own clergy from the potential lying within my priesthood, after our election to the Papacy to confer Holy Orders and "re-start" the Catholic Church.

It takes no time or discernment to see that this thesis is the product of extreme suffering on the part of traditional Latin Catholics; who see that their beloved Church will never, in their lifetimes, return to it's former glory before the Council. I think Joe this is where Orthodoxy comes in; the Orthodox Church that you left and clearly did not understand or you would not have left.

The Orthodox Church is Life. A Life in the Holy Spirit. The Head of our Church is Jesus Christ who neither needs a Vicar to act in His stead nor did he appoint one in St. Peter. St. Peter was the first Patriarch of the Church of Antioch before Rome, but Rome not Antioch took the position that it was not only the First among equals, but also the Church that all must be in Communion with to be be saved; and that all Apostolic Authority flowed in and through the this same Pope of Rome. This of course was developed later, and as you know many Popes objected to being called "First." These Popes were Orthodox.

Skipping past the historical let us go to the Truth; because history is always viewed with rose-colored glasses. The Truth is that because Christ is the Head of the Church she will never Change; She will never go past the Norms of Holy Fathers; She will never fall. In Orthodoxy heretical bishops will always be deposed. Our hope is neither in Supreme Pontiff or Papacy. A Bishop can never be "Tradition" or be infallible when speaking "ex cathedra." Orthodoxy is local. The Orthodox Catholic Church is where the Bishop is with the reverend clergy and faithful in Communion with him. If the Jurisdiction falls away from true Orthodoxy then we will call our people together with the Faithful clergy and start another Jurisdiction; In Orthodoxy this is not a problem because again where the Bishop is there is the Catholic Church. So we are not tied to a Rome or an Antioch or a Constantinopolis. We are faithful to Orthodoxy. Patriarchs have fallen, Bishops have apostacized. The whole Church at one time was reduced to a few faithful as per St. Athanasius, but the Orthodox Catholic Church still survived. Your problem is that you are trying to have an Orthodox ecclesiology as a Latin Catholic. You know that these Pope claimants are either in need of psychiatric help or are not following the true canonical process for electing a Counter-Pope. Herein lies your delemma.

The reality is that until the heretical Pope in Rome is deposed, and Latin/Papal Tradition is vindicated through the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith or over 2/3 of the Church revolts and desires a return to tradition, and have Cardinals and Bishops to elect a Pope and convene an Ecumenical Council, that all these other efforts, "Pope Pius XIII, CMRI, SSPV et al, will end up as vagante groups (many of which are); that you must be under the Jurisdiction of the Ordinary of the Diocese in which you live and must seek the traditional life and Liturgy through the ordinary valid processes of the that Church.

Athanasius Contra Mundum.

St. Athanasius was Orthodox and so was the Church of Rome; but it has since departed and is reaping the fruits of her separation from the Holy Orthodox Catholic Apostolic Church of the East. Any group that departs from and separates itself from Orthodoxy will self-destruct. Once you are cut off from the Vine you will wither and die.

True Orthodox ecclesiology is based on the reality that only within the Orthodox Way can the priesthood and the Hierarchy function with the uncreated Divine Grace of the Consubstantial and Life-Creating Trinity.

In Orthodox ecclesiology if a Hierarch has lead the Church into heresy or is a heretic he is to be anathematized and cast out even no clergy will do so and only the people who held the Orthodox Faith will do it. But within Latin Catholicism it is different. "No one may judge the Sovereign Pontiff","the Pope is Tradition", "The Roman Pontiff is the source and highest form of Authority on the Earth; he is God on earth" "Not even the Church may judge the Pope" et al..These are paraphrases of well known statements that can easily be found in Denzinger.

The problem is these statments were made by "orthodox" Popes; now you have "heretical" Popes who use the same power, but for a different purpose. In Orthodoxy there is no problem with heretical Hierarchs and clergy, because if they are found to be so they are Anathematized and are no longer in the Church.

You left Orthodoxy to become a sedevacantist and ultimately a vagante catholic? What a shame and a very sad time it must be for you. Like I have said before the pain of Latin Catholics who observe their traditions is endless. It is as if your Church has forsaken you. The reality is THE CHURCH of JESUS CHRIST has never forsaken you; unfortunately the West has been beguiled into thinking that this thing called the Roman Catholic Church was "the church", but the reality is that only the Orthodox Church is THE CHURCH; that is the Truth as can not only be demonstrated by history, but also in the Life of the Church.

Search your heart. Listen to and Experience the Truth of Orthodoxy and you WILL return to Orthodoxy. Your problem is you were too into the politics of the Church and not into just saving your soul and achieving theosis. This I, a sinner, have been guilty of on more than one occasion :cry:

Orthodoxy is Life. Return to Life.

In St. Athanasius,

Alexis

Last edited by Alexis in Alaska on Tue 16 September 2003 4:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

The Council of Constance sure as well judged the pope. And not just one pope, but three at once! And decreed that no pope is above an ecumenical council!

Of course the new pope, which the council decided on, later decided to accept all the decrees except the clause that he is below the council, which ironically enough, had the power to simaltaneously depose three popes and install him.

And for a long while after that, the pope was struggling to regain control over everything from his bishops, so when the Council of Florence was to be convened, the pope sent galleys to pick up the Orthodox delegation from Constantinople, and so did the Latin bishops!

It was a race to get the Orthodox delegation onto their boats and into their control, since having the Orthodox delegation meant control over important events. When the two fleets met at Constantinople, they almost went to battle.

There is a very good book on these relatively obscure events if anyone is interested.

I believe the SSPX best represents the Latin church, after all, how do you go from killing Muslims and heretics to communing with them? Quite a development of doctrine indeed! On the other hand, the Latin system was never about tradition, as Seraphim pointed out, it is about change, so perhaps the current pope best represents the fashionable.

This is why the Latin church can accept the first seven ecumenical councils with their lips, but in fact accepts not one of them.

Sorry to detract from your fine post Alexis.


I would also like to add, for Joe's sake, that if he is honest with the facts, he will find that the further back he goes in history, the more his church will look Orthodox. His church once had iconostasis, they baptized with triple immersion, they used leaven bread, they communed with bread and wine, they did not have a doctrine of Purgatory, they did not have a doctrine of papal infallibility, they did not have Cardinals, they did not have a Curia, they did not have Indulgences, they did not have a Magesterium, they did not have "stations of the cross", the popes never attended an ecumenical council, their bishops crowns were exactly like ours, they Chrismated and Baptised on the same day, and eventually, he would find himself in a Church where he would think he was in an Orthodox Church.

So since you can and have to admit that you do develop, I guess you would also have to wonder what is not a developement, and perhaps if the Pope was not another "developement".

Alexis in Alaska
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Joined: Mon 4 November 2002 7:24 pm

Post by Alexis in Alaska »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

No problem OrthodoxyorDeath!

What I was trying to show Joe is that the Orthodox Church loves him and wants him to come home. We love you Joe! You don't have to spend the rest of your life as a sedevacantist and eventually a member of a vagante group. Come home. The Fathers of the Seven Ecumenical Councils and all the company of Heaven will rejoice when you come back. You can bet on it! Remember true theologizing is to be praying always. The theologian is one who prays. Truly pray and the theology of Heaven revealed in the nous will convince you of the truth of Orthodoxy.

In the Theotokos,

Alexis

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

OOD,

There is a very good book on these relatively obscure events if anyone is interested.

I, for one, would be interested in knowing the name of it. Apart from Pillars of Orthodoxy by Holy Apostles Convent, I've not read more than scraps and blurbs about this very important time period.

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

I pray Joe will open his heart as well.

Justin, the book is called

"The History of the Council of Florence"
translated from the Russian by Basil Popoff
published by HTM in 1971

An amazing book to read if you are studying this period of history...

a great price too, $8 - I would think $25

http://www.orthodoxpress.org/catalog/church_h.htm

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Jakub
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Post by Jakub »

Good thought stirring posts, AO & OoD.

james

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Joe Zollars
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hmm

Post by Joe Zollars »

I shall take some time to consider what has been said.

However I would stipulate that as the ENTIRE Curia and the "Pope" JPII can be easily seen to hold to the "synthesis of all Heresy" (Pope St. Pius X Domini Gregis), there is no jury, and so it is left to the people to see what is what. There are provisions that if no cardinal is left alive, a popular election of the Pope is possible. However with so many claimants, unless one is utterly convinced JPII is the Pope (which he theoretically cannot be), one can not help to be at least in practice sedevacantist.

As for Feeneyism being "an arrogant heresy" (as opposed to ecumenism which dares to tell God he must save all???????????????????????), I would dare to put forth that "Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus" (this is the correct spelling AO) is a dogma of the Church required for belief to be a Catholic.

I don't see how I can ever go to Orthodoxy as it is an illogical position from where I am standing. To be truly Orthodox, I would have to chuck the belief in everything that is good and holy in the west (St. Dominic, the hounds of the Lord (Domini Canes--I know bad joke), the Rosary, the Tridentine Mass, St. Pius X, the saintly Marcel Lefebre, the rich beuty, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.)

Also, and I almost hate to bring this up again, but the most hateful spiteful people I ever met in my entire life (whether in person or on line --although admittedly much less so with those I met in person) were Orthodox, while the most caring, charitable, ostensibly holy people I have ever met were traditionalist Roman Catholics. I have never personally seen true holiness in an Orthodox setting, although one individual did come close, very very close. This is not saying it don't exist but I must put my "fingers in the nail marks etc." However I also must realize that I cannot presume to judge except that which I can plainly see so I do not pass judgement on anyone but simply state that the people, to use y'all's terminology, who were most deified were tradRC's.

Also and above all else is an issue very dear at heart to me. Well really two. The first is that when I chucked the protestant heresy and became a Roman Catholic, I lost an enormous section of my family. I have had to reconcile myself to the fact that I will never see any of them again and also to the fact that a good many of them will go to hell as it is extremely unlikely that they would convert. Remember I came from a staunch Southern Babtist background (so conservative we were actually too conservative for the SBC). I cannot begin to believe that this immense pain that ripped my family apart and nearly caused my parents to divorce and me to be homeless and completely familyless at 16 was all for nought. I can and will not say that. My only consolation is that now I have access to the Churches Sacraments (at least once or twice a year anyway) and the graces necessary to save my soul. The second issue is that the girl I love would never mary someone who is not a true Catholic.

Finally if I became Orthodox, I would have to be an ecumenist and therefore not even truly Orthodox.

however I will take your posts and consider them for what they are worth.

Joe Zollars

PS: I must also state that I truly did not mean this in an offensive way to anyone individual or even Orthodoxy at large. I simply stated the observations of the chief of sinners.

Last edited by Joe Zollars on Tue 16 September 2003 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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