Say What?? - Orthodox Prayer and Buddhist Mindfulness

[Maria]

More from Fr. Seraphim Rose on Zen Buddhism:
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/ ... ning.shtml

Zen has, in fact, no theological foundation, relying entirely on "experience" and thus falling into the "pragmatic fallacy" that has already been noted earlier in this book, in the chapter on Hinduism: "If it works, it must be true and good." Zen, without any theology, is no more able than Hinduism to distinguish between good and evil spiritual experiences; it can only state what seems to be good because it brings "peace" and "harmony," as judged by the natural powers of the mind and not by any revelation -everything else it rejects as more or less illusory. Zen appeals to the subtle pride — so widespread today — of those who think they can save themselves, and thus have no need of any Saviour outside themselves.

Of all of today's Eastern religious currents, Zen is probably the most sophisticated intellectually and the most sober spiritually. With its teaching of compassion and a loving "Cosmic Buddha," it is perhaps as high a religious ideal as the human mind can attain — without Christ. Its tragedy is precisely that is has no Christ in it, and thus no salvation, and its very sophistication and sobriety effectively prevent its followers from seeking salvation in Christ. In its quiet, compassionate way it is perhaps the saddest of all the reminders of the "post-Christian" times in which we live. Non-Christian "spirituality" is no longer a foreign importation in the West; it has become a native American religion putting down deep roots into the consciousness of the West. Let us be warned from this: the religion of the future will not be a mere cult or sect, but a powerful and profound religious orientation which will be absolutely convincing to the mind and heart of modern man.

[joasia]

Ok. I'm going to have to put my foot down on this. You ladies are going off on a completely different track. YES. We know that Buddhism is a false belief. I've read Fr. Seraphim's book. I've read ALL his books. Fr. Brendan is just explaining some basics in a 30 minute time period.
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However, Fr. Brendan might have asked that his recording to be removed from Ancient Faith as he stated in his post above that he could not do justice to his article in the restricted time format of a podcast.

What does that have to do with anything?? He was at a lecture. Why should the podcast be removed? He wasn't proclaiming that Buddhism was right. His explanation was showing that their views are not Orthodox. And he advised us that he has a paper so we can get that and read it.

Another podcast. Some hoity-toity "Orthodox" scientist claimed that Orthodox people who believe in the literal version of the creation of man are all IDIOTS. I WROTE AN EMAIL TO THE EDITOR OF AFR AND WAS TOLD THAT THERE WERE OTHER COMPLAINTS AND THAT PODCAST WAS QUICKLY REMOVED.

I am VERY nit-picking. I am sure that everyone in this forum will attest to that. So, I can tell you that there is no offensive statements made in this specific podcast. I listen to AFR podcasts. And I keep my ears open. I have even written to some priests AND a Presbytera when I heard questionable comments. I got a response or two and I STILL challenged the responses. The Presbytera attacked me because I questioned her support of evolution. The other response, from a priest, couldn't give me an answer as to why he thought it was cool that they didn't have to fast for St. Peter and Paul in 2013. He even laughed about it (on his podcast) like, hey, ha ha, no Apostle fast this year. Say what? A priest is saying this?? THIS IS A CANONICAL FAST THAT IS ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED BY THE ORTHODOX CHURCH.

Another podcast was about humanism and they answered a question from a caller about whether the Neanderthals had some kind of human aspect or something to that effect. Well, I was waiting for them to start off with explaining that we don't believe in Neanderthals because that's an evolutionistic belief. But, they just answered like Neanderthals were real beings so I wrote an email to THAT priest. He NEVER responded.

So, all this to say, that I have an understanding of how World Orthodox think and I will challenge them. I think I might be developing a reputation there (maybe I'm on their black list). But there are many podcasts that are very spiritually edifying, especially the historical explanations of the church and explanations of other religious views. And as far as Fr. Brendan's lecture goes, he said nothing wrong by the measures of Orthodox belief. We don't believe in Buddhism. If you want the full details of his explanations then get his paper. My response is only based on his lecture provided here.

I don't think there is anything more I can say here. If you want to keep posting quotes and arguments about Buddhism, then start a new thread. It would definitely be edifying to have a discussion about that.

Joanna

[Maria]

Joasia,

I went back to AFR with the intention of listening attentively once again to Fr. Brendan podcast, but greatly to my dismay, I found that podcast had been removed.

I had not asked for it be removed, so I do not know the story behind the removal of that podcast. However, Father Brendan did say that he was very limited in what he could say in 30 minutes or so, and had he had to abridge much of what he said in his paper. Herein lies the problem with podcasts. What does one say and what does one toss out? Yet, Father Brendan also stated that Ecumenists were also attacking his position, so it looks like he was between a rock and a hard place.

Yet, Fr. Thomas Hopko and other speakers have been allowed to preach a series of podcasts on one subject, so they were allowed to have more than 30 minutes.

[Maria]

The topic is on Orthodox Prayer and Buddhist Mindfulness.

When an Orthodox Christian is praying Orthodox Prayers with the full intention to the best of his/her abilities of keeping one's thoughts focused on the Triune Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, on the Theotokos, and on the Holy Saints of God, then one is praying devoutly.

Humanly, we are sinners in need of God's mercy, so we often pray, "Through the prayers of the Most Holy Theokos, O Savior, save us" (from the Divine Liturgy) because it is the Mother of God, the Theotokos, the God-bearer of Christ, who leads us to Christ, and who intercedes to God that we may be saved. She is not God, nor are the Saints God, but they have reached theosis and are now in a position in Heaven to intercede to the All-Holy Trinity to have mercy on us.

On the other hand, if one as an Orthodox Christian were to attempt to prayer with Buddhist Mindfulness, then he or she would become an apostate.

There is no other way to look at this.

If we should encounter a sincere Buddhist, then we should not praise his Buddhist Mindfulnes as that would be encouraging him to remain a pagan who does not worship the Triune Godhead: Father Son, and Holy Spirit. However, we should pray for him and encourage him to seek the Truth, Who is Christ-God.

[joasia]

The topic is on Orthodox Prayer and Buddhist Mindfulness.

When an Orthodox Christian is praying Orthodox Prayers with the full intention to the best of his/her abilities of keeping one's thoughts focused on the Triune Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, on the Theotokos, and on the Holy Saints of God, then one is praying devoutly.

Humanly, we are sinners in need of God's mercy, so we often pray, "Through the prayers of the Most Holy Theokos, O Savior, save us" (from the Divine Liturgy) because it is the Mother of God, the Theotokos, the God-bearer of Christ, who leads us to Christ, and who intercedes to God that we may be saved. She is not God, nor are the Saints God, but they have reached theosis and are now in a position in Heaven to intercede to the All-Holy Trinity to have mercy on us.

On the other hand, if one as an Orthodox Christian were to attempt to prayer with Buddhist Mindfulness, then he or she would become an apostate.

There is no other way to look at this.

If we should encounter a sincere Buddhist, then we should not praise his Buddhist Mindfulnes as that would be encouraging him to remain a pagan who does not worship the Triune Godhead: Father Son, and Holy Spirit. However, we should pray for him and encourage him to seek the Truth, Who is Christ-God.

Maria, my dear. You are not getting it at all. Fr. Brendan's explanation has NOTHING to do with an Orthodox Christian praying as a Buddhist. Where do you get that idea??? Again, I will explain, that he is just describing what they believe. He is never ever saying anywhere that this is the way an Orthodox should pray. I really don't understand where you are interpreting this.

I will repeat again. I am a nit-picker. And if I heard anything wrong, I would be the first to send an email. I've done it many times before as I've mentioned so I will always do it again if my conscience compels me. I REFUSE to be side-swiped by worldly "Orthodox" views that are so liberal. But, all I can say is that in this podcast, Fr. Brendan was just providing basic information about what Buddhists believe. That's all.

Like I said, if I would hear something off-kilter, somebody would be getting an email from me.

Joanna

P.S. I think I've been tagged as: watch out for emails from Joanna. They are also quite aware of me in the Chat Room on Sunday lives shows. But, I stand by what I believe in which is just the simple, basic faith of the Orthodox teachings. Unfortunately, many World Orthodox priests don't know what they are involved in. They have good intentions, but that doesn't lead to the main path of truth. It is a complicated situation of the heart, but we need to pray to God to give time for them to come to the full realization of the truth. That being said, it's late and I have to get to bed.

[Maria]

Joanna,

I just finished talking with an Orthodox Priest who has extensively studied Buddhism and other pagan religions while he was working for his doctorate and taught comparative religions.

Basically, Buddhism believes in the pre-existence of souls, which is considered a heresy in Orthodoxy. Several of our Church Fathers were condemned as heretics for their beliefs in the pre-existence of souls. One of them, Origin, comes to mind.

Anyway, according to Buddhism, these pre-existing souls are incarnated into human bodies and given a chance to reach Nirvana (a state of blessedness where one becomes in communion with Atman, the Buddhist Godhead). Individuality is lost in Nirvana as one becomes absorbed by Atman. Buddhist mindfulness is the process whereby one reaches Nirvana. Each time a person fails to reach Nirvana, they die and then are reincarnated into another body, until they ultimately reach this state of blessedness.

However, reincarnation is another heresy, which also has a dark side, as Rosicrucians also believe in reincarnation, astroprojection, etc..

Anyway, learning about other religions is not necessary for our salvation. Indeed, it can become a distraction from God and a source of pride. The saying from Holy Scriptures comes to mind, "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" (Mark 8:36 KJV) Indeed, what shall it profit a man if he were to gain knowledge of all religions, but has not reached theosis himself, or has not yet started to repent?

I read recently that those who pray (and reach theosis) are given insights by God, so that if they meet others who are seeking the truth about Christ, these Orthodox Christians will be instructed by the Holy Spirit on what to say. Yet, who are we to say that we have reached this high level of sanctity? Who are we to say that we are being guided by the Holy Spirit in our attempt to convert the world? Pride can be so subtle.

Let us not fall into the sin of pride and think that we need to seek encyclopedic knowledge when knowledge by itself is what the Freemasons seek in their production of encyclopedias.

[joasia]

Anyway, learning about other religions is not necessary for our salvation.

Again, I will reiterate. It's not about saving our souls to know this information, it's about knowing how to introduce them to the Living Christ.

Indeed, it can become a distraction from God and a source of pride.

I don't see that at all. It's just simple information.

The saying from Holy Scriptures comes to mind, "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" (Mark 8:36 KJV) Indeed, what shall it profit a man if he were to gain knowledge of all religions, but has not reached theosis himself, or has not yet started to repent?

You're taking this way out of context. How is having some information about another religion gaining the whole world? That quote is referring to a person who seeks for material gains and worldly knowledge as if it is more important than God. I'm just talking about having information about another religion.

I read recently that those who pray (and reach theosis) are given insights by God, so that if they meet others who are seeking the truth about Christ, these Orthodox Christians will be instructed by the Holy Spirit on what to say. Yet, who are we to say that we have reached this high level of sanctity? Who are we to say that we are being guided by the Holy Spirit in our attempt to convert the world? Pride can be so subtle.

This has nothing to do with pride. But, it does have to do with the fact that none of us here have reached theosis. We are still in the learning state and therefore learning about subjects outside of Orthodox (or even about Orthodox theology) is part of our spiritual growth. And I think that there is a major need for us to understand how to explain Orthodoxy to non-Orthodox. Fr. Seraphim Rose wrote his book for us so that we could understand the lies of other religions. He wanted to educate us. I've been caught many times with questions that I couldn't answer because I couldn't explain the Orthodox view the way they could understand it. Because I didn't understand their view point. I have learnt a lot more since then. I am though stumped by your response. We, who have the full truth, should not hide it like a light under a bushel. To those who are given much, there is much expected from them. If you know there is danger for another person and you have the information to help them will you keep it to yourself because you know you are at least safe? If you know there is a wonderful place, wouldn't you want to share it with others? Are you thinking only of your own safety (salvation)? We may not be saints in the state of theosis, but God has given us the knowledge of truth.

Let us not fall into the sin of pride and think that we need to seek encyclopedic knowledge when knowledge by itself is what the Freemasons seek in their production of encyclopedias.

You are taking this the wrong way. I have no pride just because I want to understand how the other religions think. I accept this information BECAUSE I'm not in a state of theosis and I need to do the grunt work. God is not giving me instant information to reply with Orthodox wisdom to someone. Pride is when we think we are better than others because of our knowledge. My view is that I want to share the joy of knowing Christ.

Since the topic is being moved along in another direction, may I suggest that we split this to a new thread?