Sts. Tikhon & John of San Francisco on the Western Rite

[Maria]

There is no real point and no spiritual benefit.

Is it your position that the pre schism liturgies are ineffective in either the worship of our creator, the sanctification of the gifts or both?
I would tend to think that it is not our continued use of a rite that gives it life but rather it is the grace of God that he bestows upon us during worship and the mysteries that is life creating.
I would agree with you that if the sole reason in reestablishing these rites were to make papist converts feel more comfortable that reasoning is flawed. However, I have never heard that used as a justification for the WR, at least not within the TOC.

I have heard Western Rite clergy in the New Calendar Churches and in True Orthodoxy express that they would rather use the Orthodox Western Rite for Roman Catholic and Anglican converts as it is more comforting and spiritually beneficial for them.

I disagree as I was a cradle Roman Catholic, and the very first Divine Liturgy I attended was celebrated in Aramaic and Greek, the very languages our Lord used, but not languages that I speak. In spite of the "language barrier," the Divine Liturgy was awesome. Even though I did not understand most of the words, I understand the movements and I was in awe and in tears.

[Barbara]

I agree with that last, for my first Divine Liturgy - and ALL of them - have been in Slavonic.
The novelty as well as the beauty riveted my attention.
If it had been very similar to the Mass, I would maybe not have been so intrigued.

Yet of course, other people have different psychological profiles. So I see some sense in offering Western Rite,
but only a VERY controlled one, not out of hand like some have gotten.

Certainly NO version derived from anglican forms of "worship". Worship of what is the question ? I don't see it as REAL worship of God. Perhaps, rather, catering to humans, for wasn't THAT what the entire group was founded upon ?!

The Priests would have to be carefully vetted. No acceptance of anyone and their brother. And careful monitoring by
qualified clergy. Probably True Orthodox jurisdictions don't have that kind of time available. But, for some day later
when more Westerners are showing interest in True Orthodoxy.

[Lydia]

How do you pray when you don't know what the prayers are? I would have found it very difficult to pray with others(which is the purpose of Church Services) if I didn't know what was being said. Did you use a bi-lingual prayer book and follow along?
At this point in time there is really no reason other than nationalism that all services are not in English in English speaking countries. The language barrier most certainly dissuades not only conversion but also missionary work. I don't think its fair or Orthodox to expect English speaking people to learn other languages( dead ones, at that) in order to participate fully in the liturgical life. The only reason there are Slavonic services at all is because of St Cyril inventing an alphabet so that he could bring The Church to the Slavic people.

[Isaakos]

Actually that traditional la gauges are used has a very important theological reasoning:

1. English is constantly evolving in meaning, often incorporating gobbledygook and feminist inclusive language. Many of the theological truths formulated in GREEK are best expressed in GREEK. And the willingness to continue the usage of traditional languages is certainly not Nationalism, but an unwillingness to sacrifice liturgical tradition to the great God if our era: convenience.

Let the liturgy be difficult! Let it be a mystery! Let the prayers be strange! Let the english be Shakespearean (It is actually more precise than the amalgam we call modern English. For example Thee thou thine as opposed to you ye which clearly distinguish plural and singular. This has been lost in modern English)

We love what strive for, and we want to see our faith, our liturgy unchanged. I for one appreciate it when the priest continues to use elements of the traditional languages in the Divine Liturgy. We do not have the right to insist otherwise, we must conform OUR minds to the liturgy. Not Vice Versa. If it requires work, oh well, call it asceticism as St Jerome did and let's get over our laziness.

[Lydia]

Actually that traditional la gauges are used has a very important theological reasoning:

1. English is constantly evolving in meaning, often incorporating gobbledygook and feminist inclusive language. Many of the theological truths formulated in GREEK are best expressed in GREEK. And the willingness to continue the usage of traditional languages is certainly not Nationalism, but an unwillingness to sacrifice liturgical tradition to the great God if our era: convenience.

Let the liturgy be difficult! Let it be a mystery! Let the prayers be strange! Let the english be Shakespearean (It is actually more precise than the amalgam we call modern English. For example Thee thou thine as opposed to you ye which clearly distinguish plural and singular. This has been lost in modern English)

We love what strive for, and we want to see our faith, our liturgy unchanged. I for one appreciate it when the priest continues to use elements of the traditional languages in the Divine Liturgy. We do not have the right to insist otherwise, we must conform OUR minds to the liturgy. Not Vice Versa. If it requires work, oh well, call it asceticism as St Jerome did and let's get over our laziness.

Well, Sts Cyril and Methodios, those two God-bearing missionaries, completely refute your arguments.
The liturgical prayers should not be a mystery, although the Eucharist is. We go to Church to engage in corporate prayer. I ask once again. how can you pray when you don't know what is being said?
As for preserving liturgical traditions, isn't it true that those not of The Church should not be inside during The Liturgy? Or at the very least, depart after the Liturgy of The Catachumens? Strictly speaking, the Mysteries of the Church are only for those who are united to Her.

[Maria]

Actually that traditional la gauges are used has a very important theological reasoning:

1. English is constantly evolving in meaning, often incorporating gobbledygook and feminist inclusive language. Many of the theological truths formulated in GREEK are best expressed in GREEK. And the willingness to continue the usage of traditional languages is certainly not Nationalism, but an unwillingness to sacrifice liturgical tradition to the great God if our era: convenience.

Let the liturgy be difficult! Let it be a mystery! Let the prayers be strange! Let the english be Shakespearean (It is actually more precise than the amalgam we call modern English. For example Thee thou thine as opposed to you ye which clearly distinguish plural and singular. This has been lost in modern English)

We love what strive for, and we want to see our faith, our liturgy unchanged. I for one appreciate it when the priest continues to use elements of the traditional languages in the Divine Liturgy. We do not have the right to insist otherwise, we must conform OUR minds to the liturgy. Not Vice Versa. If it requires work, oh well, call it asceticism as St Jerome did and let's get over our laziness.

Well, Sts Cyril and Methodios, those two God-bearing missionaries, completely refute your arguments.
The liturgical prayers should not be a mystery, although the Eucharist is. We go to Church to engage in corporate prayer. I ask once again. how can you pray when you don't know what is being said?
As for preserving liturgical traditions, isn't it true that those not of The Church should not be inside during The Liturgy? Or at the very least, depart after the Liturgy of The Catachumens? Strictly speaking, the Mysteries of the Church are only for those who are united to Her.

Re: Three Liturgical Abuses

1. In the OCA, reading aloud the Secret and Silent Prayers
2. In the Greek Orthodox Church, shortening the Divine Liturgy
3. In the OCA, bossy and blasphemous vernacular language that tells God what to do

Lydia, while some modernists in the OCA proclaim aloud the silent and "secret" prayers during Vespers and Divine Liturgy so that the laity can hear and understand everything that goes on, others, especially certain Greek Orthodox Priests, in an attempt to shorten the Divine Liturgy, will divide the secret prayers among the concelebrating clergy so that each priest will say silently but simultaneously a different "secret" prayer. As a result, immediately after the choir sings, "It is fitting and right," one priest sings, "Singing, proclaiming, shouting ...", while a second priest simultaneously prays silently, "It is fitting and right ...", and a third simultaneously prays silently, "We thank You. ...." Other prayers are likewise divided up among the clergy so that by the time the choir finishes singing the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of Sabaoth), these priests can proceed immediately with the words of consecration and the Epiclesis while the choir sings, "We praise Thee ... " And so the Sunday Divine Liturgy starts and promptly ends in 45 minutes with time at the conclusion for a ten minute sermon and five minutes of announcements.

The modernists would like everything to be in the vernacular much like the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo with gender neutral (inclusive) language so as not to offend the feminists. Language does change, but should we use modernistic language such as the Novus Ordo has used? Certain parishes in the OCA are doing that now. In the most recent election of their new Metropolitan Tikhon several years ago, the preparatory prayers mandated to be prayed in OCA parishes were simply awful and blasphemous as they told God whom to elect, basically a person who would do what the majority wanted. If you wish to see these, go to the OCA website.

Re: Liturgy of the Catechumen (aka: Liturgy of the Word)

"All ye catechumens, depart! Depart, ye catechumens! All ye that are catechumens, depart! Let no catechumens remain! But let us who are of the faithful, again and again, in peace pray to the Lord."
_Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom

In the early church, while those in the catechumenate were allowed to attend the Liturgy of the Word (where the Epistle and Gospel were proclaimed), they were not allowed to attend the Liturgy of the Eucharist as they were not yet enlightened through the Holy Mysteries of Baptism and Chrismation. I began to understand this when I was a catechumen many years ago. Ironically, our catechism lessons were held at 7:30 PM on Wednesday, so that enabled me to attend the first part of the Presanctified Liturgy at another parish. We had to leave by 7:15 PM which was the time the deacon or priest chanted: All ye catechumens, depart! ... When our catechism instructor, a priest, was asked about this phrase excusing those in the catechumenate, he mentioned that the early church would provide instructions for those in the catechumenate at that time.

However, today sometimes those in the catechumenate become emotional when the time of Holy Communion approaches, so they would cry. Those tears may not be spiritual tears of repentance, but could even be false tears of pride, of self-centeredness, and more like an adult temper tantrum because they are being denied Holy Communion. The priest mentioned that people have confessed these false tears to him after their purification, illumination, and sanctification when they received the Holy Mysteries of Initiation. We even witnessed a Lutheran visitor go ballistic when he approached the Chalice and was refused Holy Communion. He stood at the Solea arguing with the priest and delaying the Divine Liturgy. Although the priest tried to tell him politely, briefly, and in a low voice why he could not give him Holy Communion, the man became incensed, started yelling, and then stormed out of the church taking his family with him.

[Lydia]

No, I don't believe modern, inclusive English terminology should be used; the voluminous English lexicon has terminolgy that is both theologically correct and reverent. Isabel Hapgood's translation of Orthodox Services is very good. The beauty of English is that there are soooo many words...of course that adds to its imprecision and ambiguity.

As someone who attended Greek and Aramaic services, did you learn these languages or did you rely on translations?

Could the same argument have been made when St Cyril translated Greek services into Slavonic? That Slavonic could not have had the necessary terms to convey the theology of Greek Orthodoxy? Seems to have worked out all right.

Your description of the Lutheran gentleman's behaviour is even more reason to exclude all but Orthodox Church members from the Divine Liturgy.