Ongoing Unity Chats: Macarios, Milan, Avlona, LoBue, ROAC

[Maria]

What do you mean by "reaching out" Maria. Is there something besides what you posted? Calling other synods ecumenists and hoping they "find" canonical true orthodox bishops doesn't really sounds like reaching out to me.

I agree with you, Fr. Irineos, and indeed HOCNA has a very confrontational way of reaching out to others in a process called "tough love" to help others find "canonical true Orthodoxy."

Actually, almost all the True Orthodox will give the same response, because we have "closed communion". However, certain ROCOR-A clergy, may receive certain Protestants, Roman Catholics and World Orthodox by confession of faith, confession and/or chrismation, but not by Baptism, unless the candidate were to object and demand Baptism. In that case, the candidate may be told to go elsewhere.

HOCNA says to all interested Protestants and to Roman Catholics, "You are not really baptized at all as you were not baptized in the correct form of triple immersion. Instead you remain an unbaptized heretical ecumenist in need of repentance, and if you want to be purified, illuminated and sanctified, and become a member of our Church, you will need to become an inquirer for a period of time (perhaps three years), then a catechumen (for at least one to three years), undergo instruction, repent, be baptized, and be chrismated before you can receive the Mysteries in our Church."

To members of World Orthodoxy who were received as babies by baptism using an incorrect form (not totally submerged but only splashed with water in a kiddie pool or small infant fount) or received by chrismation into World Orthodoxy from Protestantism or Roman Catholicism where an incorrect form of baptism was received (single pouring or splashing of water), HOCNA will give the following response: "You are an unbaptized heretical ecumenist in need of repentance, and if you want to be purified, sanctified and deified, and become a member of our Church, you will need to repent, become a catechumen, undergo instruction, be baptized, and be chrismated before you can receive the Mysteries in our Church."

To members of World Orthodoxy who received the correct form of Orthodox baptism as infants or who received the correct form of Orthodox baptism when they converted from Protestantism or Roman Catholicism, they will receive this response, "You are a heretical ecumenist in need of repentance, and if you want to be purified, sanctified, and deified, and become a member of our Church, you will need to repent, undergo instruction, and be chrismated before you can receive the Mysteries in our Church. Chrismation will perfect the form of Baptism that you received."

Gregory of Colorado and Kyrikos of the Matthewites apparently receive all people, whether baptized by the correct form of Orthodox baptism or not by baptising all candidates (Pagans, Protestants, Roman Catholics, World Orthodox and True Orthodox alike). This is what happened with Monk Seraphim of Lebanon when he was recently received from the Avlona Synod into the Matthewites in August 2016 as he was baptized, chrismated, and ordained as Deacon, Priest, and Bishop over several weeks.

Before I became aware of the large number of True Orthodox Synods, I was an inquirer in HOCNA starting sometime in late 2000 while remaining a member in World Orthodoxy. I remained an inquirer in HOCNA until 2010, visiting their local church in Pomona. Becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the pro-Papal ecumenist position of World Orthodoxy, and also becoming aware of the immorality problems within HOCNA and their endorsement of Name-Worshiping and Awake Sleeper heresies, my husband and I contacted Met. Moses who had left HOCNA in April 2011 to join GOC-K. It was he who instructed us and then received us by Baptism in Dec. 2011.

When the GOC-K joined with the Cyprianites in 2014, in the union with the Synod of Resistance, my husband and I joined the GOC under Archbishop Stephanos by receiving Holy Chrismation on Feb. 28, 2015 to perfect the form of baptism that we had received at the hands of Met. Moses of Toronto.

[Maria]

I noticed that, too, when I went to check Portal-Credo for any updates on the current ROAC crisis. Looking under the English language section, I saw the mention of the trip to Georgia by Met Theodore and Archbishop Andrei [ now I see from Jean-Serge's post that there was one more ROAC hierarch present as well ].
Perhaps this visit was timed to coincide with the annual St Nina pilgrimage on foot ? I am not sure. But surely it had nothing to do with Hocna's President, as he terms himself.

That is interesting, Jean-Serge, that Met Gregory is Georgian ! I had no idea.

Well I still feel it's a help that the latter is trying to rally support for the ROAC hierarchs. At least somebody is doing SOMETHING ! I checked on the internet briefly and saw no other mention of this frightening event. I could hardly believe that there is silence on the part of the entire Orthodox world. It should be also reported in newspapers.

Despite his heresies, at least there is some support coming from Met Gregory. I wonder whether it is just he, or the entire Hocna synod is in agreement about speaking up regarding the terrible treatment of the 2 ROAC hierarchs.

I, too, though, was amazed at that disclosure of some sort of friendly ties between Hocna and ROAC. It's the first time I had heard a whisper of any contacts whatsoever.

Which ROAC Bishop is it, Maria, who might be tempted to fall, as you wrote ? Can you say ?

PS - Jean-Serge, you did a good job of confronting the lay theologian for Hocna. Who is this Thomas Deretich ? Do you have more information about how he became a true believer in the correctness of Hocna's extremely weird ideas ? It seems strange for a presumed American to imbibe such heresies. Was Deretich with Hocna for a long time ?

Apparently, the FSB does not like HOCNA's Americans, so HOCNA's new found "friendship" with Met. Theodore of ROAC has caused them some problems. Again, that matter should be addressed in the private political forum.

By the way, HOCNA had parishes in Georgia and elsewhere in Russia, but apparently has turned these parishes over to the renown Name-Worshiper "Bishop" Gregory Lourie, who was previously defrocked by the ROAC. Is Gregory Lourie under the Macarios Synod now?

[Maria]

I noticed that, too, when I went to check Portal-Credo for any updates on the current ROAC crisis. Looking under the English language section, I saw the mention of the trip to Georgia by Met Theodore and Archbishop Andrei [ now I see from Jean-Serge's post that there was one more ROAC hierarch present as well ].
Perhaps this visit was timed to coincide with the annual St Nina pilgrimage on foot ? I am not sure. But surely it had nothing to do with Hocna's President, as he terms himself.

That is interesting, Jean-Serge, that Met Gregory is Georgian ! I had no idea.

Well I still feel it's a help that the latter is trying to rally support for the ROAC hierarchs. At least somebody is doing SOMETHING ! I checked on the internet briefly and saw no other mention of this frightening event. I could hardly believe that there is silence on the part of the entire Orthodox world. It should be also reported in newspapers.

Despite his heresies, at least there is some support coming from Met Gregory. I wonder whether it is just he, or the entire Hocna synod is in agreement about speaking up regarding the terrible treatment of the 2 ROAC hierarchs.

I, too, though, was amazed at that disclosure of some sort of friendly ties between Hocna and ROAC. It's the first time I had heard a whisper of any contacts whatsoever.

Which ROAC Bishop is it, Maria, who might be tempted to fall, as you wrote ? Can you say ?

PS - Jean-Serge, you did a good job of confronting the lay theologian for Hocna. Who is this Thomas Deretich ? Do you have more information about how he became a true believer in the correctness of Hocna's extremely weird ideas ? It seems strange for a presumed American to imbibe such heresies. Was Deretich with Hocna for a long time ?

Two points:

(1) I would beware of HOCNA's friendship offer ... too much like a Trojan Horse.

Knowing that the former bishop and Name-Worshiper, Gregory Lourie, was defrocked by ROAC is important because HOCNA maintains communion with Gregory Lourie, so any ROAC friendship with HOCNA can have negative ramifications, as we can already see.

(2) Thomas Deretich is a prominent lay theologian of HOCNA. He apparently serves as a ghost writer for Met. Gregory and others.

[Jean-Serge]

By the way, HOCNA had parishes in Georgia and elsewhere in Russia, but apparently has turned these parishes over to the renown Name-Worshiper "Bishop" Gregory Lourie, who was previously defrocked by the ROAC. Is Gregory Lourie under the Macarios Synod now?

HOCNA still has parishes in Georgia. The origin of these parishes is the moment when some Georgian left the Church of Georgia (World orthodoxy) due to ecumenism. After investigation, they reached the conclusion that the right choice was a synod that was the heir of Archbishop Auxentius of Athens, which led them to HOCNA. I really doubt HOCNA gave its parishes to Gregory Lourie because the article of Portal-credo clearly shows that all parishes mentioned in Georgia are with HOCNA and not Gregory Lourie. The said Gregory Lourie is still in in independent church and entered recently in communion witth another Russian Church headed by Damascene of Moscow. It was reported in July 2016.

See here in Russian http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=121373

[Maria]

By the way, HOCNA had parishes in Georgia and elsewhere in Russia, but apparently has turned these parishes over to the renown Name-Worshiper "Bishop" Gregory Lourie, who was previously defrocked by the ROAC. Is Gregory Lourie under the Macarios Synod now?

HOCNA still has parishes in Georgia. The origin of these parishes is the moment when some Georgian left the Church of Georgia (World orthodoxy) due to ecumenism. After investigation, they reached the conclusion that the right choice was a synod that was the heir of Archbishop Auxentius of Athens, which led them to HOCNA. I really doubt HOCNA gave its parishes to Gregory Lourie because the article of Portal-credo clearly shows that all parishes mentioned in Georgia are with HOCNA and not Gregory Lourie. The said Gregory Lourie is still in in independent church and entered recently in communion witth another Russian Church headed by Damascene of Moscow. It was reported in July 2016.

See here in Russian http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=121373

So, what happened with Gregory Lourie's association with Met. Rafael of Moscow?

Remember that Met. Rafael of Moscow used to be in communion with Met. John LoBue of New York until he was accused of Name-Worshiping. With the accusation of the heresy of Name-Worshiping, Met. Rafael's union with Met. LoBue was severed in 2014, and now Met. LoBue remains alone without being in communion with any synod, as he also broke communion with the Avlona Synod of Greece..

Is Met. Rafael still in communion with the Avlona Synod?

[Maria]

The following is a slightly edited Google Translation from the Russian Original.

http://www.portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=121373

I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, but the identity saith, all ye, and so will not be in your strife, that ye may be also approved in perfect prudence and perfect thoughts (1 Cor 1: 10.) - the holy apostle Paul calls us. Following the natural desire to be of one mind in the faith of Christians, which unity is the outward expression of the mysterious unity of the Body of Christ, by this Act, we, the undersigned bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church and the Bishops Council of the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church, bear witness to the full canonical communion between us.

Numerous divisions in our local Russian Orthodox Church have emerged in the era of persecution of the twentieth century and have been associated with both the machinations of persecutors, following the old principle of 'divide and rule', with differences in theological and canonical views. For centuries, these differences were present in our church and secretly broke out after a godless revolution. But if the Sergianist Renovators had fallen away from the Church in a fundamental, religious character, the division among the True Orthodox were and still are mostly purely administrative, not accompanied by differences in faith. So, the Catacomb True Orthodox Church in the Fatherland and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia mutually recognize each other. In addition, the hierarchy of ROCOR in Russia has helped the Catacomb Church to be restored.

New temptations face our Church after the fall of the atheist regime. Firstly, the persecution of the True Orthodox in Russia has not stopped, but has acquired new forms, sometimes more subtle and dangerous than it was during open atheism. Secondly, the Church has been enriched with a mass of new converts from among the[ former atheists or followers of the Sergianist Patriarchate. In addition, the Church has been weakened with the spirit of unhealthy "competition" and sinful lust for power. Many of us have been responsible for the new division because of the fervor, lack of prudence and love, too much suspicion of neighbors and other sinful, but venial (through repentance) human weaknesses. The new division, while painful and sinful, did not involve falling away into heresy or schism in the strict canonical sense. Such separation is well known in church history, which gives us a lot of examples of how the Orthodox find themselves on opposite sides of the conflict caused by a misunderstanding. Recognizing such division is the first step in the healing of a person, and we see this healing as the duty of Orthodox bishops. Now we have to forget old feuds and not return to them.

On this basis, having repentance for our division, and asking for forgiveness from each other and all the True Orthodox Bishops of the Russian tradition, we, the bishops of the True Orthodox Church of Russia, agree to the following:

1. The Russian Orthodox Church unites now all true Orthodox Christians who reject the ancient heresies, convicted by the Holy Fathers, and the latest Sergianism heresy, ecumenism and imyaborchestvo (Name-fighting or those who are against the heresy of Name-Worshiping), regardless of their organizational and administrative situation of these Christians.

2. For historical reasons, the Orthodox Russian Church is currently deprived of a common organization, formed by the Local Council of the Higher bodies of church authority, obedience, which should be mandatory for all its bishops, clergy and laity.

3. The True Orthodox hierarchs of the Russian Church in these circumstances have combined to form temporary church organizations (sometimes called a small cathedral) or they continue to exist independently, which, however, does not release them from the obligation to be in full communion with each other, where the faithful and priests in their diocese can concelebrate.

4. None of the above time-church organizations, and none of the True Orthodox bishops of the Russian Church does not have the powers of ecclesiastical authority over other similar organizations, and bishops, but every small or independent Cathedral Bishop guided by their own internal traditions and orders, not conflict with the general church law. Only dogmatic and canonical issues, because their value goes beyond the lives of individual religious associations are subject to joint discussion of all the Bishops, have come together in the full church and canonical communion.

5. The differences in historical facts or seemingly incompatible political views should not be an obstacle for communication between True Orthodox Christians. The Apostle Paul even admits that a certain share of disagreements between Christians occurred on minor issues, reminding us to cover this difference of opinion with love.

6. None of the bishops have authority over one another, but all are brothers in Christ.

This Act is drawn up in seven copies (one copy for each of the signatories) for the two groups of bishops: the Russian Orthodox Church and the Bishops Council of the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church.

We invite all the bishops, historically associated with the Russian Orthodox Church, and we share the same true-Orthodox confession of faith, denouncing the heresy of ecumenism Sergianism and leave the old quarrels and restore communion in the bosom of a single True Orthodox Church of Russia.

Metropolitan of Moscow and All-Russia of Damascus

Archbishop of Zaporizhia and John Malorossiysky

Bishop of Belgorod and South-Russian Mikhail

Vladimir Bishop

Bishop Gregory of Petrograd and Gdov

Bishop Sebastian Chelyabinsk

Bishop of Kaluga and Obninsk Ignatius

Approved: in the village Myatlevo Kaluga diocese in the Church of the Icon of the Mother of God "Joy of All Who Sorrow."

June 26 / July 9, 2016
Mother of God Tihfinskiya

First note that the King James Version reads: “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” The Google translate version is a little garbled from the Russian. What does a good translation from the original Greek read?

Second note that Bishop Gregory of Petrograd and Gdov is the same Gregory Lourie.
He now claims to be a bishop of the ROAC, from which he was defrocked, but this same Gregory Lourie is now in schism and in heresy as he embraces the Name-Worshiping heresy.

UPDATED: And third note that this is Met. Damascene of Russia, not Met. Rafael. Both are now in heresy as they both fully embraces the Name-Worshiping heresy.

This continual schism and heresy only creates confusion in the minds of the faithful, not unity.

[Mark Templet]

Wow this topic is all over the place. But at least some have cautioned restraint in jumping to conclusions. I can confirm that there was absolutely no work done in Georgia between ROAC and HOCNA for the expressed purpose of unification. Quite the opposite, it was an opportunity for those few bishops involved to get to know one another personally. Metroplitan Gregory was extremely gracious and kind and showed our ROAC heirarchs around his native land. People asked basic questions and listened to each other's answers about who everyone is. That's it. It was only the start of even coming close to thinking about dealing with all this. And yet their are already rumors on this very site about bishops "falling." This should be shameful. I suppose the only way some see dealing with controversial issues is through harshness rather than people getting to know each other and gradually clarifying and resolving heretical things to the truth. ROAC is not about to immediately join with HOCNA, these things move at the speed of bishops, which is usually quite slow. In all my time in ROAC I have never seen our synod make rash decisions or join with people for convenience or worldly advancement. If we wanted that they would have surrendered to the MP a long time ago rather than suffering for Traditional Orthodoxy.