The departed benefit from our prayers, and receive a degree of consolation, but our prayers cannot change their judgement. After death the opportunity for repentance vanishes, and the punishment cannot be reversed, but perhaps the burden can be lightened by our prayers.
Through the holy act of prayer, we, as the Body of Christ, commune with each other, remember our beloved, and recollect the inevitability of our own future death.
Ephraem
~He who seeth his own sins, seeth not the sins of others.
Actually, has anyone heard the Small Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos? Do you not hear that words, that the Saints (by asking their intercession and spiritualy bonding with them through GOD) can be our defenders not undergo the Judgement. (For only the Righteous and the Saints do not undergo the Judgement.) Because the second Coming will be to Judge the living and the Dead for their bad Actions. Now that isn't Catholic nonsense actually....
Nowhere do I find in this canon that the saints can intercede for us to the point of preventing us from being judged. Please, an exact quote would be helpful.
Hey, anyone read the life of Saint Xenia of Saint-Petersburg the Fool for Christ? She consecrated her life to Christ in the streets of Russia for the bad life her husband had. (Due to heavy alcoholism he died) And Saint Xenia, begged GOD all her living days for his salvation, and not punishment to Hell. Well, because of her good actions, an Angel of God came to her some time before her Dormition telling her that her husband has been saved thanks to her. Both her and her husband will be brother and sister in Paradise.
Was her husband unrepentant? I don't think we can know. St. Xenia's prayers were beneficial to her beloved husband, but to say that he was taken out of Hell seems to be an extrapolation that may not be shown. The Patristic witness on the matter seems to be that sacred services for the dead can only provide consolation to those in sin and unrepentance, but not salvation.
So actually doing memorial requiem services and prayers for the dead are actually tiny grains of good salt for the dead.
Absolutely.
Ephraem
~He who seeth his own sins, seeth not the sins of others.
Ephraem wrote:What Tom is pointing out is that this "legend" does indeed trespass the Orthodox veneration of Mary by inserting an illustration of her as co-Redemptress. .... this has nothing to do with Mary having the ear of her Son, for she would never contradict his will by discrediting His judgement, i.e. taking someone who has been placed in Hell and putting them in Heaven. It's Catholic nonsense.
That's all I'm sayin.
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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."
A few incoherent [EDIT--I meant rambling, though some will think them incoherent I guess 
] thoughts. I don't find the piece to be scandalizing, though I do disagree with the theology. Poetry (or story) is certainly a different genre than dogmatic treatise... I think they should be judged using different standards. What I mean is, if someone had said something similar in a statement of faith or something of that sort, I think it would be much more open to penetrating, possibly harsh, criticism. I have seen quotes, not a few in fact, that seem to indicate that our "status" can change after the last judgment. Now, you can probably dig up quotes from the Fathers to support just about any position, just as you could do the same with the Scripture. Perhaps these quotes express ideas that are not orthodox; nonetheless, I do know that they do exist (unfortunately I don't recall where any of them are... though if you post on this on the Indiana List or Orthodox Tradition or similar list, you will probably get some responses). One other thought: hell, proper speaking, does not exist yet. According to Revelation, hell is created at the end of time, so all there is now is hades. So, we are talking about whether someone's "status" can change after the particular judgment, not after the final judgment that will be on the "last day" (however that works in a "place" with no time, I don't know). Also, properly speaking, if people could "switch," they wouldn't be escaping hell, but hades.
Also, properly speaking, if people could "switch," they wouldn't be escaping hell, but hades.
That's a good point. Can a person's personal judgement be changed by prayer and intercession as opposed to the final judgement?...since, of course, that person has no more chance to change for him/her self. But, that may be somewhat different from already being there and "switching".
Or do the prayers for the dead help lighten their burden of judgement? Does this prayer help only the Orthodox or do the non-Orthodox have the same equal right for intercession, even if they are not baptised in the fullness of the truth?
And with all that...if prayers can be an intercession to help people move up, then wouldn't it be plausible, that the Theotokos would have the biggest influence, aside from Christ, of course?
I'm not supporting the catholic dogma, if anyone is wondering. I abhor the catholic teachings. Their version of purgatory is based on a person waiting out a certain time to do penitence, like being in prison and then getting parol for good behavior, of their own abilitites. This is alot more deeper than that.
But, the concept of intercession, by our prayers insinuates that upward spiritual movement is still possible with the right help. That our prayers are a living and spiritual function that affects another soul. Otherwise, why bother to do prayers for the dead?
If satan is given the power to take souls, then why can't we be given the ability to combat his efforts, to save souls,with prayers? Why would God give the power to one side?
But, if all of this is just a fantasy in my head, then tell me. And I'll shut up.
Joanna
Ephraem wrote:What Tom is pointing out is that this "legend" does indeed trespass the Orthodox veneration of Mary by inserting an illustration of her as co-Redemptress.
Not only that, but this isn't consonant with official definitions of Co-Redemption; it's actually an abuse, even if the theory were accepted.
This thing is obviously folk theology; I wish I could be surprised that there is argument over it.
