What does the Incarnate Son of God Know?

[AndyHolland]

Please consider carefully, that a simple man cannot believe the Lord would lie, or use guile, or would mislead, or would that the Gospels would report so plainly what is not true.

If the Lord who is Truth misled, then who could believe the report?

We know that all of the Saints are like us in this respect - they are not without sins.

For example, my favorite St. Gregory of Nyssa penned a forgery - let us forget the matter and unknow his sin.

If God the Son can know all, God the Son can unknow for our sake, and share in not knowing the hour to hold in common with all flesh a blessed ignorance until He Himself unseals the Scroll.

Pray and search the Scriptures.

andy holland
sinner

[尼古拉前执事]

Dear Andrew,

What of the other Church Fathers we quoted?

Please also remember what the eunich said to Timothy. This is of great wisdom.

[GOCPriestMark]

If the Fishermen are revealed as all wise, and they so believed, and the Evangelists so reported, who then can say that they have superior knowledge to the original disciples?

When are they revealed as all wise? Not until after the decent of the Holy Spirit.
Were you, Andy Holland, there when our Lord spoke of His second coming? Then how do you know what He said?
Were you, Andy Holland, there when the Holy Apostles Matthew and Mark recorded our Lord's words? Then how do you know to what they bear witness? Have you read their Gospels in the original tongue? In a translation that has been checked and approved by the Orthodox Church? Read again what St. Basil says: "He could not say what is false Who said "All things that the Father hath are Mine," but one of the things which the Father hath is knowledge of that day and of that hour. In the passage in Matthew, then, the Lord made no mention of His own Person, as a matter beyond controversy, and said that the angels knew not and that His Father alone knew, tacitly asserting the knowledge of His Father to be His own knowledge too, because of what He had said elsewhere. "as the Father knoweth me even so know I the Father," and if the Father has complete knowledge of the Son, nothing excepted, so that He knows all knowledge to dwell in Him, He will clearly be known as fully by the Son with all His inherent wisdom and all His knowledge of things to come. This modification, I think, may be given to the words of Matthew, "but my Father only." Now as to the words of Mark, who appears distinctly to exclude the Son from the knowledge, my opinion is this. No man knoweth, neither the angels of God; nor yet the Son would have known unless the Father had known: that is, the cause of the Son's knowing comes from the Father. To a fair hearer there is no violence in this interpretation, because the word "only" is not added as it is in Matthew. Mark's sense, then, is as follows: of that day and of that hour knoweth no man, nor the angels of God; but even the Son would not have known if the Father had not known, for the knowledge naturally His was given by the Father. This is very decorous and becoming the divine nature to say of the Son, because He has, His knowledge and His being, beheld in all the wisdom and glory which become His Godhead, from Him with Whom He is consubstantial."
The Church is the source of the Holy Scriptures, without the witness of the its Holy Fathers we wouldn't even know what books should be included. God chose to work through them to pass down all we need to know for our salvation. Between the Holy Fathers and the Holy Apostles there can be no disagreement. If we see something which appears thus then we must find out how we are wrong in our thinking, for it is we who are wrong, not them. If something does not sound right in a modern translation then we need to check one that has been approved by the Orthodox Church. We should also search the understanding of the Holy Fathers, actually, this even has to be done in order to choose the right words when translating. Literal translation doesn't always work, but the translation must be according to the mind of the Church, (which most certainly includes the Holy Apostles). The teaching of the Orthodox Church is that God the Son knows all that the Father knows. Therefore I tried to suggest that you take a look into the theology concerning the Son of God and His incarnation and two natures. But instead you have repeated your idea which seems to be based on a narrow reading of one small piece of scripture and that translated by non-Orthodox people. Please review the Orthodox theology concerning the Incarnate Word of God and then return to this discussion. I don't mean to sound harsh, but if one will not accept all that the Holy Church teaches then how can that one claim to be Orthodox? Even if one doesn't know everything, (and I most certainly do not, I learned much even researching for this topic), one must at least confess that one's desire is to believe the same as the Orthodox Church teaches.

[GOCPriestMark]

If God the Son can know all, God the Son can unknow for our sake, and share in not knowing the hour to hold in common with all flesh a blessed ignorance until He Himself unseals the Scroll.

The above, if you have no references for it being the Orthodox teaching, should not be repeated as it seems to be of your own construction. God the Son knows all or He is not God.

[AndyHolland]

If the Fishermen are revealed as all wise, and they so believed, and the Evangelists so reported, who then can say that they have superior knowledge to the original disciples?

When are they revealed as all wise? Not until after the decent of the Holy Spirit.
Were you, Andy Holland, there when our Lord spoke of His second coming? Then how do you know what He said?

The Evangelists were - and they reported the words plainly. They believed them at the time of the hearing, and made them plain for we are simple and lowly. If they were all wise then why would they repeat what should have been covered over for the sake of the simple? Clearly they are all wise, and included the words to confound the wise who need to believe simply.

I earnestly prayed to know, and the Holy Spirit revealed this beautifully.
In truth the Lord gave me something more beautiful; that is to realize that one may have a gift and yet with patience not open it.

[/u] For truly, the Bridegroom is a virgin, and so He is a virgin in knowledge of the hour, so that with the Church full knowledge may be consumated at the hour of His Coming again in Glory.

And I swear before God and man, that these words above come to me not from study of others, but from the Spirit that bares witness to the truth.

Were you, Andy Holland, there when the Holy Apostles Matthew and Mark recorded our Lord's words? Then how do you know to what they bear witness? Have you read their Gospels in the original tongue? In a translation that has been checked and approved by the Orthodox Church? Read again what St. Basil says: "He could not say what is false Who said "All things that the Father hath are Mine," but one of the things which the Father hath is knowledge of that day and of that hour.

Consider the sealed scroll. Only the L ... stantial."[/quote]
Why would the Lord purposely mislead and use guile? All of our words that describe God are inadequate.

If I misdirected in my worldly work as a nuclear engineer before civil authorities, I would go to prison. How then can we be dragged before Civil Authorities and report that our Lord could use guile?

What the Truth has Spoken, that for Truth I hold.

The Church is the source of the Holy Scriptures, without the witness of the its Holy Fathers we wouldn't even know what books should be included. God chose to work through them to pass down all we need to know for our salvation. Between the Holy Fathers and the Holy Apostles there can be no disagreement. If we see something which appears thus then we must find out how we are wrong in our thinking, for it is we who are wrong, not them. If something does not sound right in a modern translation then we need to check one that has been approved by the Orthodox Church. We should also search the understanding of the Holy Fathers, actually, this even has to be done in order to choose the right words when translating. Literal translation doesn't always work, but the translation must be according to the mind of the Church, (which most certainly includes the Holy Apostles).

You should know full well given what the fathers themselves have written, this is not a translation issue. They have clearly indicated a severe problem with the text in their own tongue in their own day.

Yet Did St. Gregory of Nyssa err when he penned a forgery?
Did he err when he taught Universal salvation?

Certainly the Church fathers themselves bare witness that the language is plain, and they have interpreted it personally, or based on anonymous others, to imply guile. This the Blessed Theophylact makes plain when he takes what St. John, St. Gregory and St. Basil have said to their natural conclusion.

If the Fishermen were misled at the teaching of our Lord, the Gospels are not true. The Church does not teach what you have stated, rather, the Church preaches the Gospels to the ends of the Earth.

The teaching of the Orthodox Church is that God the Son knows all that the Father knows.

That is what you say. The teaching of the Orthodox Church is the Holy Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. If that, however, is the teaching of your Orthodox church, your Orthodox church is clearly in error.

Therefore I tried to suggest that you take a look into the theology concerning the Son of God and His incarnation and two natures. But instead you have repeated your idea which seems to be based on a narrow reading of one small piece of scripture and that translated by non-Orthodox people. Please review the Orthodox theology concerning the Incarnate Word of God and then return to this discussion.

The Humility of the Divine Incarnation.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but if one will not accept all that the Holy Church teaches then how can that one claim to be Orthodox?

Because the true Church does not teach falsehood. Because the Lord promised to reveal to the simple, and withhold from the wise. How therefore did he reveal only to Greek fathers what is complex, so that they may exalt themselves?

They are sinners like we. Our religion is not a dead museum piece religion. If you truly believe in simplicity, the Lord will show you marvellous things.

Even if one doesn't know everything, (and I most certainly do not, I learned much even researching for this topic), one must at least confess that one's desire is to believe the same as the Orthodox Church teaches.

I certainly do believe what the Church teaches and always will with God's help. However, the true faith is not complex, theoretical and abstract. The true faith is a faith that is shared by the simple and the wise, so the wise may be made simple, and the simple may be made wise. So every valley shall be exalted, and every hill made low, and the rough places should be made plain.

Therefore it is given to the most worthless sinners, of whom I am chief, something beautiful from time to time.

There are literally millions of people of simple faith who believe as I do simply. They believe because they are led to the true faith by the Lord. They believe in love, peace and humility. They believe because the Word they Hear is the Truth. They believe in all nations, tongues and times.

And all share with Christ, the beauty of not knowing the hour. This is Truth, this is Beauty, this is True Religion undefiled before God. I Believe Christ Jesus, and every word that He has spoken I hold dear and near. Teach me your ways Lord Jesus and save me.

There is no legitimate father who will convict one who bears witness THAT EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF THE LORD IS TRUE.

andy holland
sinner

[AndyHolland]

Do you remember, when Jesus began His public ministry, He opened the Scroll and found the place?

Jesus is fully human - with all of a man's limitations so that He is not a faker when He opens the Scroll and finds the place, but rather, He is fully human, having in his posession the Scroll so that as man He must find the place. This is fully Human.

This is a theological necessity for our benefit - because as God is just, he cannot know sin. If God in His Divinity cannot become man, and in humility loose knowledge of our Sin, then in justice His mercy is limited.

Yet God forgives - and He forgives by becoming Fully Human. Christ therefore judges the World and the peoples with His truth. To those who do good deeds, He remembers those deeds in His Kingdom. To those who do not do good deeds, he puts at his left side.

Is this really a mystery? Search the Scriptures.

The personal opinions of even magnificent Saints such as St. John, St. Basil, the Blessed Theophylact - are irrelevant.

The Truth is revealed as the Lord chooses to even the most wretched and worthless sinners.

You ask where was I when these things happened? In truth, I was there and you are there too, in the Divinie Liturgy. When you read Holy Scripture to seek the Truth, you are there.

So as God is Fully human, so He shares His Divinity with us in the Divine Liturgy.

This is the Orthodox Truth. Incarnational Theology requires the full humanity of Christ our true God as well as our taking part in His Divinity.

Therefore, let us put away all of our judgments, and make recourse to the Divine to judge, and to the Human to forget forever.

Jesus Christ is Lord! The Spirit that reveals these things declares the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord, therefore the Spirit is true.

If you insist that Jesus Christ must know, then you insist that Jesus Christ is faking His full humanity, and using guile when He opens the Scroll and finds the place, or when He clearly indicates He does not know the hour. That is not our God, but a Gnostic god who is not truthful, and therefore, not our God.

It is not for the fathers, as wonderful as they are, to know all things. They and we share in this, we know not the hour of His coming - yet we know He will come again in Glory to Judge, and His Judgment is true, and His mercy is from ever-lasting to ever-lasting (even His Humility) and Truth endures forever (even the Truth of guileless God - even the Truth of Humility).

For if Humility does not endure forever, then Humility is not of God. Yet Humility is of God, and of God forever. So that God the Son, the Christ is ever Humble. When He knows the hour He Judges. When He judges He unknows our Sins forever so that humility endures forever in God, so that humanity endures forever in God, and we endure forever for we are all wretched sinners.

This is clearly proven, and all of the Holy Scripture, which is self-consistent, agrees - therefore, the fathers agree and bare witness to the Truth. Jesus is True God in His Divine, Humble Incarnation.

Do not exclude those who are simple, from learning from the Spirit, the deep and hidden things of God. Do no exclude from those who do not search the fathers, but rather the Holy Spirit by asking in their humility for truth - not for themselves, but for also for the sake of others.

Please, learn to forgive, and forget - so that with Christ, we may all love one another forever - in humility forever.

Blessed be the Humble God, forever, Amen.

andy holland
sinner