Which Renderings Of This Prayer Do You Use?

[Gregory2]

Hello, Orthodox brothers and sisters, I am new here. I've been visiting rocorcafe.com for some time now, but just joined. I thank the creators of this site for making an edifying Orthodox presence on the web!!

Concerning the issue at hand, the one we use at my church (an OCA parish) is closest to the Jordanville 1979 one - interestingly, it's [u]least[/u] like the OCA prayer book one listed above.

"Virginity" is supposed to equal "corruption," is supposed to equal "stain."

I think in our over-sexed 2003 world, "virginity" is the best choice, since a lot of people (myself included) might not realize what is meant by "corruption" or "stain." The word "virginity" is most clear about what is meant. We're not talking about spilling coffee on your shirt!

[Justin Kissel]

Actually, virginity is the one choice that I don't think is acceptable. It doesn't convey well enough (especially to our modern society) the level of purity that Mary had. If we believe our tradition, she was fed by angels, meditated daily on the scriptures, prayed ceaselessly, and so forth. She was so much beyond simply a virgin, she was one who had not ever sinned. Today we tend to associate virginity with merely the physical aspect of having sexual relations, but in the minds of the Fathers virginity was as much about purity of soul as it was about being physically pure. Indeed, one reason that Protestants probably have a hard time understanding the perpetual virginity of Mary is because they think of her virginity as nothing more than a physical state that was used to demonstrate the power of God. In other words, she was a virgin and gave birth, and so God's power was shown. In the minds of Protestants, after that it would have been perfectly natural for Mary to have sex with Joseph since "sex isn't dirty" and "they were married" (and they don't have any of the traditions that the Orthodox Church does that would make this unlikely, if not downright foolish). So, it's not that virgin is wrong (in fact it was the most often used term in the early Church), it's just that our culture (including Christians) almost always misunderstand what this term meant. Not only was she bodily pure (virgin), but she was pure and "untouched by man" in her heart, and she was to remain so all her life. She was to remain forever stainless, without stain (though cooperation with God in his uncreated divine grace).

[尼古拉前执事]

Gregory, first off, in case I have not said it before, welcome. I just noticed you mentioned the old URL of www.rocorcafe.com that URL sometimes gives people cookie troubles, so you are better off coming here through our newer url of http://www.EuphrosynosCafe.com

[Gregory2]

Paradosis,

Thanks for that explanation above. It does make things clearer. I have to admit, I am affected from the Protestant way of thinking from time to time.

Nicholas, thanks much for the news -- euphrosynoscafe.com from now on it is.

[Justin Kissel]

Regarding different renderings of prayers, differences between Theotokos and Mother of God, and so forth, perhaps an examination of some of the prayers in the Jordanville Prayer Books would be helpful. There are quite a few changes in wordings between the different editions, but this doesn't mean that the content of the prayers have changed. If we were to follow this prayer book in our own practice, it would seem that the differences are not especially important (since the different words, in the end, are filled with the same content). For an example of this, here's a short comparison of some of the differences between the Canon of Repentance in the 1979 and 1996 editions.

Song 3, Eirmos
There is none holy as Thou, O Lord my God, Who hast exalted the power of thy faithful, O Good one - 1979

There is none holy as Thou, O Lord my God, Who has exalted the horn of Thy faithful, O Good one - 1996

Song 3, Theotokion
Lo, thy Son calls, O Lady, and teaches us what is good. - 1979

Behold, thy Son calleth, O Lady, and directeth us to what is good. - 1996

Song 4, Troparia
...Why do you run after pride and lust? And so, stop these things, my soul, and repent for the sake of the Kingdom of God. - 1979

...Why dost thou pursue lust and pride? Therfore, abandon thse things, my soul, and repent for the sake of the kingdom of God. - 1996

Song 4, Theotokion
O Lady, Mother of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. - 1979

O lady Theotokos, have mercy on me, a sinner - 1996

Song 6, Troparia
Virgin Mother of God, protect me from evil visible and invisible, O immaculate one - 1979

O Virgin Theotokos, protect me from evil visiible and invisible, O immaculate one - 1996

Song 8, Theotokion
Most pure Mother of God, accept my unworthy prayer and preserve me from sudden death - 1979

O most pure Theotokos, accept mine unworthy prayer and preserve me from sudden death - 1996

[尼古拉前执事]

The 1996 version seem to be an improvement, but I wish I knew what the original prayers said so I could say which is more accurate.

[Justin Kissel]

Theotokos is obviously more true to the original, but which is best understood by people in English?

There's a somewhat cliche'd saying: the best Bible is the one you read. Something similar, IMO, is true of prayers: the one you understand are the ones you should use. I don't know Greek or Russian, and even if I did, I understand English far better than I would these languages. Therefore, I'll use English prayers. I agree with you that the 1996 version is a better version, though I think the point I was trying to make is still valid: when it comes down to it, a range of wordings are acceptable, and one needn't insist--ala KJV-only fundamentalists--on one particular translation or rendering. Even the MSS for the Scriptures are filled to the brim with typos and errors; we shouldn't be so hasty to put our faith in "what is written," as though changing a word is going to change our faith. The content of what Church teaches (regardless of language or idiom used) is what is most important. The pursuit of "what is most historically accurate," to the detriment of following the living tradition handed on to us (even if it is not the oldest or "purest" form or Orthodoxy), is not Orthodox. E.g., it doesn't matter whether 1 Jn. 5:7, part of Jn. 8 and Mk. 16, and so forth were part of the original Scriptural text*: what matters is what the Church, having Christ as her head, has delivered to you and I as truth.

Justin

• They probably weren't, and if they were originally in the autographs, they somehow got cut out of most early MSS.