Toll Houses + Unhealthy polemics at NFTU is not good.

[Maria]

Icxyprion,

Fr. Michael Azkoul also considers the Toll-house view to be an heresy and he is a priest of the GOC under Abp. Kallinikos. He wrote a book calling Fr. Seraphim and his works neo-Gnostic. There are TOC people who have gone into this foray.

In Christ,

Fr. Enoch

Fr. Enoch,

Fr. Michael Azkoul was a member of HOCNA when he wrote his book calling Fr. Seraphim and his works neo-Gnostic. Since we have seen a pattern of isolationism in HOCNA, I guess all these questions (Toll Houses, Icons of the Father, Augustine, and Redemption) will need to be answered sooner or later, or perhaps they already have. Could it be that the GOC-Kallinikos members are free to believe each of these beliefs as theologumen?

Nevertheless, I think it is important to realize that HOCNA left the pre MP-ROCOR (who supported belief in Toll Houses) and HOCNA has claimed that they fled to the Greek Church (which generally does not believe in Toll Houses). Now we know that the GOC considers all the ordinations and consecrations of the HOCNA clergy to be in doubt.

By the way since ROCOR has a history of believing in Toll Houses, has the ROCOR-MP recanted their belief in Toll Houses?
Does the MP also believe in Toll Houses?

This pre-MP ROCOR defrocked the infamous deacon who changed his name to "Archbishop" Lazar, and who was ultimately accepted into the OCA as a retired archbishop. Apparently the OCA branch of the Russian Church believes that Toll Houses can be considered a theologumen. The OCA has truly become a heretical group by their acceptance of Sergianism, Ecumenism, and now "Lazarism" by accepting Lazar and his twisted assortment of beliefs into the OCA.

Someone has pointed out that the GOC Synod-Kallinikos has never issued a decree that unanimously accepts Toll Houses as worthy of belief or must be believed under pain of anathema? One or two bishops does not the Synod make.

Has the EP ever declared with the consent of his Synod that Toll Houses are worthy of belief?

Has the Russian Patriarch or Russian Synod ever declared that Toll Houses must be believed under pain of anathema?

[Matthew]

Icxyprion, Fr. Michael Azkoul also considers the Toll-house view to be an heresy and he is a priest of the GOC under Abp. Kallinikos. He wrote a book calling Fr. Seraphim and his works neo-Gnostic. There are TOC people who have gone into this foray.
In Christ, Fr. Enoch

Fair enough. But that is only one fairly visible person on the subject in the TOC. I speak in generalities about the phenomenon. Far and away the vast majority of nay sayers against the Toll House teaching are indeed, and undeniably the Ecumenists. And those who support and accept with simplicity the teaching are those who are TOC believers. What I have said is self-evident if one peruses the blogs and books etc online. Of course there are people on both sides of the fence that can be found in both the TOC and the NWO Pseudodox. By the way, Puhalo was also in the TOC when he attacked Fr Seraphim, as I noted, but look where he ended up today. "The truth will out," as they say. I do not say that everyone who is against the Toll Houses in the TOC is going to go the way of Puhalo. God forbid. But I think that those who scrutinize the teaching of the Church and trust their wits run into trouble down the line, whereas those who humbly accept the traditions and dont mind being thought of as simpleminded etc are more likely to be shielded from a fall due to pride or trust in oneself. Someone may indeed be very pious and not believe in the Toll House Tradition, such as Fr. Michael Azkoul. But for many it may not be so. They may be overcome by some kind of pride or unbelief that over the course of time will draw them into a net of one sort or another and find they are separated from the True Church, either in spirit, in doctrine, in mind, or materially and ecclesiastically. May God save each of us from falling into that horrible trap for none of us is immune--but God protects us in his mercy and helps us. God help us to seek ways in ourselves to stay as humble as possible trusting only in His mercy and in the wisdom of the Church. Just my thoughts...

[Matthew]

Hello Maria,

Yes, good point about the isolationism that characterises HOCNA. Interesting to note that Abp Gregory in Colorado, whom personally despite certain faults, I hold some respect for, seems to suffer from the isolationist tendency of HOCNA. It will be interesting to see how the monks who have joined our GOC synod make out over time. I hope they settle in well and do not leave over some impulse from their years of training at HOCNA.

Also, I think that ROCOR (pre-MP) did indeed by a full synodal meeting conclude that Fr Seraphim was correct (the Soul After Death Book was vindicated) and Puhalo was deemed to be in the wrong and told to end his contentions and remain silent. So that is not just one or two bishops. It was the whole and formal declaration of ROCOR. As for what rocor-mp believes now they by their actions show they care not about anything their synod's predecessors might have said or judged, and they feel no need to counter rule it in any formal way, they simply will forget about it and change their policy incrementally as they did in their bid to take over the Rocor synod and hand it over lock stock and barrel to the atheists and judases. AS I said before, I think you should not be measuring things in terms of formal declarations to arrive at a sense of what is right in ever case. For some things, it seems to me, there is simply the general witness of the Church, and not a formal statement or pronouncement at this point.

[Matthew]

I should explain my feeling of respect for Abp Gregory to those of you who really are set against him. I was a New Calendarist who had no contact with anyone in the TOC and was still a fairly recent convert (about 6 years in the EP church I was going to) from Evangelicalism. I for some time was growing more and more upset over the presence of Catholic priests serving at the altar with our Orthodox EP priest on occasion (usually Pascha or other feast days) and through an acquaintance who knew of Abp Gregory was put in touch with him to find some answers to my questions. So, in the end it was Abp Gregory that turned the light on for me about TOC vs World Orthodoxy. At that time, too, you should know he was not alone, but a bishop in the Synod of Metr. Valentine of Suzdal. So he was not in a schismatic condition at the time, and his language did not reflect schismatic isolations but the opposite--how wonderful to be part of the Catacomb Russian Church. I hope that explains some things so you don't think ill of me.

[Maria]

I should explain my feeling of respect for Abp Gregory to those of you who really are set against him. I was a New Calendarist who had no contact with anyone in the TOC and was still a fairly recent convert (about 6 years in the EP church I was going to) from Evangelicalism. I for some time was growing more and more upset over the presence of Catholic priests serving at the altar with our Orthodox EP priest on occasion (usually Pascha or other feast days) and through an acquaintance who knew of Abp Gregory was put in touch with him to find some answers to my questions. So, in the end it was Abp Gregory that turned the light on for me about TOC vs World Orthodoxy. At that time, too, you should know he was not alone, but a bishop in the Synod of Metr. Valentine of Suzdal. So he was not in a schismatic condition at the time, and his language did not reflect schismatic isolations but the opposite--how wonderful to be part of the Catacomb Russian Church. I hope that explains some things so you don't think ill of me.

I am praying for Archbishop Gregory that he will see his errors and repent. It does great harm to the True Orthodox to have all these false claims of sexual impropriety (no evidence at all) that Archbishop Gregory accuses the various TOCs that are not affiliated with him.

[Matthew]

I pray for him and the brethren there with him. I know them personally and love them and hope for us all to be under one umbrella in the near future. They are good guys who really are trying to love God and please Him. There is much confusion today for all of us, and scandals abound. The latest one that really shocks me - if it is really all true that I read in the "Fires of Manton" article (see http://www.monomakhos.com/the-fires-of-manton/ )
I stayed in that monastery for two months as a worker/postulant, and it was a wonderful place at the time. It was clean with no funny business going on after hours, I can assure you. Fr. Jonah for all his faults was dead against anything outside of what is allowed only in marriage, and that was clear to all the brethren, all of whom were straight men except for one of them but he was definitely trying to live in repentance at the time. Anyway, all that to say that from what I can tell Abp Gregory is doing his best to do what is right, and so are the monastics with him. But as one old TOC churchman told me, "I have seen decades of the same thing: anyone who was associated with Panteliemon, even if they have fled his influence, spend the rest of their lives with weaknesses and struggles that are the direct result of the Panteliemonite spirit they were formed in."

[Maria]

I pray for him and the brethren there with him. I know them personally and love them and hope for us all to be under one umbrella in the near future. They are good guys who really are trying to love God and please Him. There is much confusion today for all of us, and scandals abound. The latest one that really shocks me - if it is really all true that I read in the "Fires of Manton" article (see http://www.monomakhos.com/the-fires-of-manton/ )
I stayed in that monastery for two months as a worker/postulant, and it was a wonderful place at the time. It was clean with no funny business going on after hours, I can assure you. Fr. Jonah for all his faults was dead against anything outside of what is allowed only in marriage, and that was clear to all the brethren, all of whom were straight men except for one of them but he was definitely trying to live in repentance at the time. Anyway, all that to say that from what I can tell Abp Gregory is doing his best to do what is right, and so are the monastics with him. But as one old TOC churchman told me, "I have seen decades of the same thing: anyone who was associated with Panteliemon, even if they have fled his influence, spend the rest of their lives with weaknesses and struggles that are the direct result of the Panteliemonite spirit they were formed in."

Having spent many years in the OCA before coming to the GOC, I can say that the prevailing attitude in the OCA is similar to that of HOCNA, which I did visit for about six years (2000 to 2005). Many priests in the OCA as in HOCNA tell their parishioners to avoid computer gossip, and to look at their own sins. The result is that people can be in the presence of evil all around them, but bury their heads in the sand for fear that they will suffer damnation lest they accuse their clergy of sexual improprieties. Although I did meet some holy people both in the OCA and in HOCNA, there were quite a few parishioners who did not know much about Orthodoxy (Orthodox in name only), and then others who were almost paranoid (scrupulous) with morbid fear and who were like mother hens in their protection of Synod members. And these folks would tell others in a very self-righteous tone to avoid pride, rash judgment, and readings from blogs. Certainly there were a few "news" blogs which were not good for one's salvation like the one run by the open homosexual Mark Stokoe, and thankfully, that one has been shut down as he stepped on too many toes, especially those of the Antiochian Bishop, Metropolitan Philip.

The same thing is happening in the Greek Orthodox Church, especially with Elder Ephraim of Arizona (St. Anthony Monastery). This Elder has denounced True Orthodoxy and has supposedly ceased baptizing those Catholics and Protestants catechumens who were previously baptized in their heterodox churches. He is telling the devout members of World Orthodoxy to stay within that group even though its Bishops are involved in horrible wickedness and ecumenism. He also accuses those who "defect" to the True Orthodox of heresy because they doubt that World Orthodox Bishops and their priests can perform the Holy Mysteries. Then the audacious claim is made by World Orthodox clergy that the Church has always had wicked bishops. Yes, we suffered through the Arian heresy which claimed about 80 to 90 percent of our bishops worldwide. Thus, it was right that St. Nicholas of Myra and other Holy Fathers denounced this heresy. Following the example of our Holy Fathers, we simply cannot remain silent in the face of evil especially with this new wave of the pan heresies of Ecumenism, Modernism, Sergianism, Name-Worshipping and Awake Sleepers. It is not surprising that these heresies seem to allow for all kinds of depravity as involvement in Ecumenism places the World Orthodox clergy in the presence of depraved Episcopalians, New Age heretics, and Wicca priests.